Did a search and got only 2 hits on this. You guys got any thoughts, recommendations? I have a home office, everything is on it’s own surge protector, thought the whole house might be a better way to go.
Thanks
Kevin
Did a search and got only 2 hits on this. You guys got any thoughts, recommendations? I have a home office, everything is on it’s own surge protector, thought the whole house might be a better way to go.
Thanks
Kevin
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Replies
I had one in my last house. Can't really say how well it worked except that in 10 years we never had any electronic equipment damaged by voltage spikes. Prior to that house I had strikes causing damage several times. Haven't been in the current house long enough to tell. BTW - we do get our share of electrical storms here.
Keep in mind that I don't really know what I am talking about on this one - just repeating what my electrician told me.
That the way a whole house unit works, it sacrifices itself to block the surge. That means that if I get a strike, I am looking at another three hundred bucks to replace it each time.
That it is better protection than small individual units, depending on the joule rating they each have, but I elected to pass on it myself.
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LMAO!!The opening sentence sounds like a legal disclaimer. Stick with what I got, don't want a one hit wonder. What if all the appliances were plugged into GFI's, would they trip prior to damage, (know you might not know the answer).
Just saw your last post. No, gfci's do not protect against surges.
The unit only "sacrifices itself" if confronted with a surge larger than it can handle. And the one I installed in our breaker panel about 10 years ago I'm sure was under $100. And models for most panel brands are available now in the $100 range:http://www.stopsurges.com/BREAKER-TYPE-SURGE-PROTECTOR_c9.htm
This country will not be a permanently good place for any of us to live in unless we make it a reasonably good place for all of us to live in. --Theodore Roosevelt
Whole house surge protection is supposed to be a bit stronger for protecting from lightning and utility surges. All electricians recommend point of use protection in addition to whole house protection because surges can and do originate from inside the house. For example, every time you turn on or off a light switch you create a surge. How big of one depends on a lot of factors. A 60w light creates less than your 30amp oven turning on.
Edited 12/5/2009 6:41 pm ET by Adriel
Try the search again, put in "surge" in the subject and in the FROM box junkhound.
He knows how to blow stuff up.
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=21917.1
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=64622.1
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=97068.1
3 of many on the subject
Joe H
That 2005 effort Joe referenced was about the best summary, reproduced here with some additions.
... buy about 10 ea B32K275 MOVs (similar or larger, about $20 each from Mouser or other distributor) and package them tight in a welded steel box (to prevent them from blowing apart from a nearby lightning stroke). To be effective you need a ground of less than 0.5 ohms. You are NOT going to have that good of ground unless you are on salt water or Louisiana gumbo: typical house is that good only if you have welded rebar (brought out and welded to the box 2 opposite corners) or other extensive ground, a simple ground rod is likely 50 times that value, basically worthless for grounding a big arrestor). in your foundation footings and they are below the water table.
NO PIGTAILs, the MOVs need to be attached directly to the main power feeders in a low inductance configuration (not a simple job if you dont know how to configure low inductance leads). The incoming power conduit needs to go to the steel box (ideally mounted IN the foundation and welded to all rebar) before it goes to the panel. Starting to get complex for whole house arrestors to actually work well, isn't it??
http://www.epcos.com/web/generator/Web/Sections/ProductCatalog/NonlinearResistors/Varistors/PDF/PDF__General,property=Data__en.pdf;/General_technical_information.pdf
Art, I'm going to build once more and figured on welding all the rod. Doesn't seem a tie wire connection from one rusty bar to another is gonna do the trick for an effective ground.
So, I need 2 bars coming up to this welded steel (how thick) box that I am going to convince Otero Electric Co-op to run my incoming to?
Then what, you lost me.
NO PIGTAILs, the MOVs need to be attached directly to the main power feeders in a low inductance configuration (not a simple job if you dont know how to configure low inductance leads
Well you got me there, not a clue what's next.
This welded steel box is to be imbedded in the foundation, slab on grade but with a stem wall to frost level so probably can do that without a problem with an underground incoming from pole. Then conduit to panel.
The PDF from EPCOS sez soldered connections, but you're saying packed tightly together so they don't blow apart & no pigtails. I'm lost.
Is this something the POCO & local Inspector is likely to approve of?
Joe H
Sent you an e-mail, incomplete, but a start with some details.
Probably best for poco and inspector to just put a big junction box at where your welded rebar come out of foundation - meterbox to junction box, then to CB panel. Ideally would be good to have the main disconnect before the junction box -- will draw up some ideas for you and post later.
Thanks Art.
Waiting for spring, 20º & foot of snow here so lots of planning time.
Joe H
Note to all:
Unless you are going to do the welded rebar, etc. like Joe is contemplating, a whole house arrestor is pretty worthless.
Here is a pix of some analysis files - local MOVs provide better protection than whole house for most items, ep if the branch circuit is relatively long.
Joe's type whole house will protect all his motors, most installations with a nominal 10 ohm ground are basically worthless.
editing to try to get file size manageable.
View Image
Edited 12/7/2009 10:52 am ET by junkhound
Edited 12/7/2009 10:55 am ET by junkhound
Edited 12/7/2009 10:57 am ET by junkhound
attach
PS: I'll be doing a mini-design job for Joe's new house in the next few months, if anyone wants the details I'll add you to the mailing list.
Parts cost expected to be in the $100 range DIY including a junction box but excluding 2" rigid conduit (you should be able to get that surplus or have it in your scrpa pile <G> and have a 2" pipe threader available <GG>)
Edited 12/7/2009 11:00 am ET by junkhound
Art, file is too manageable, can't read most of it.
Looks like 3 of the same Littlefuse MOVs at each remote location, especially at TV & computer type stuff?
Best get the bulk pack for this project.
Thanks, Joe H
Depending on your breaker box youmight have some options. The Murray/Siemens boxes have a double 20amp breaker that includes surge protection. IF all the surge capacity has been expended, the circuit will stop working - that means you KNOW your surge protector has burnt out BEFORE it frys you 50" TV!
Tu stultus es
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Look, just send me to my drawer. This whole talking-to-you thing is like double punishment.
That's funny, picked up a 50" plasma last week, 1080p plasma.
Both my current house and the previous one had a whole house surge protector by Intermatic. The first one I ordered from an electrical supply house, the more recent one was on sale at Home Depot.
The Intermatic is not expensive $40 five years ago, and has lamps to monitor its condition.
how do you protect a 3 ton heat pump- anything you can put on the outside disconnect box??
> how do you protect a 3 ton heat pump- anything you can put on the outside disconnect box??Pretty sure there are units made for that duty, similar to the sort of whole-house units that attach to the side of the panel.
This country will not be a permanently good place for any of us to live in unless we make it a reasonably good place for all of us to live in. --Theodore Roosevelt
I believe so. If lightening were to strike your yard near the air conditioner a surge protector mounted and wired to the outdoor disconnect could reduce a surge entering your house. Of course if lightening hit the air conditioner itself probably nothing would work.
Here in Omaha NE we can get a whole house surge protector through our electric company. Cost is a few $ per month added to your bill. It also includes an insruence policy if it doesn't work.
In addition to the unit in my breaker panel I have a 20-year-old "Meter Treater" unit behind my meter, installed by the POCO at a cost of about $75 (then). No lights or indicators on it, though, so no way to tell if it's still doing any good.
This country will not be a permanently good place for any of us to live in unless we make it a reasonably good place for all of us to live in. --Theodore Roosevelt
I suppose you need to start by asking yourself just where the surge will come from. Then, you have to remember that a surge protector will have absolutely no effect on what is 'downstream' from it.
So: does the surge come from inside the house or outside the house? Let's look at the causes of surges:
1) Caused as the electronics in an appliance operate, or fail;
2) Caused as major loads switch 'on' or 'off;'
3) Caused by a bad connection on the neutral wire in a shared circuit;
4) Caused by the power supply; and,
5) Caused by Mother Nature.
The next part of the question is less obvious: what will a surge harm? Chances are that your baseboard heaters are nearly immune to surges, while your cable TV box is pretty vulnerable.
From the above list, we can see that there is a need for surge protection at the appliance. That is, you want a surge protector at your TV, computer, microwave oven, alarm system, etc. For something like the cable TV, you might consider surge protection on the cable feed as well as the power cord.
Hand in hand with surge protection at the appliance, you want there to be a good path to ground; often a surge protector will try to send 'extra' electricity down the ground wire.
You'll notice I mentioned problems with the neutral wire. This is the one type of surge that a GFCI will help for, though it's not intended for that use. It's just that the electronics in the GFCI fry when they see the higher voltage.
Your "neutral" wire originates at the power company transformer. Any bad connection along the way will expose the circuits to higher voltages than they should see. While surge protectors at the appliances will protect you from a bad neutral inside your house, having protection at the panel is the preferred way to protect from a bad power company feed.
Another source for surges at the panel are other sources of power. If you have a generator, it's possible for there to be a surge when you switch over. It's possible for the inverter to your photocell panels to introduce a surge into the system.
The final source for surges is lightning. Lightning doesn't have to strike your house - a strike near power lines can give you a surge.
True whole-house surge protection is not cheap; the last time I priced such a job, the materials alone were about $800.
Your approach needs to be two-fold. First, protect those appliances that are most easily damaged by a surge, or that are most expensive. It's a no-brainer to protect that $5000 plasma TV with an $8 surge protector. Something goes wrong. you're out $8.
If there is any suggestion of surge problems coming from the power company side of the meter, consider adding protection at the panel as well. For example, if you lose the $8 strips on several circuits all at once, chances are the surge came from the panel (or before it).
In an older neighborhood, it's more likely for their to be problems when the power company grid is overloaded.
So far, all but one 'power quality' issue I've looked at was caused by a bad connection on a neutral wire. The one exception is still unknown, but may have been a bad capacitor at the power company transformer (that was found and replaced).
As we add power sources - solar panels, windmills, generators, UPS battery systems, transformers, variable speed drives - to our systems, we increase the possibility of there being a surge, or 'power quality,' problem. Still, for the typical American, it's not really an issue to lose much sleep over.
> Then, you have to remember that a surge protector will have absolutely no effect on what is 'downstream' from it.Not entirely true. A suppressor will partially suppress "downstream" surges, though not nearly as effectively as "upstream" ones.But there are few (if any) devices inside a typical house capable of causing a surge anywhere near as substantial as a lightning-induced surge.
This country will not be a permanently good place for any of us to live in unless we make it a reasonably good place for all of us to live in. --Theodore Roosevelt
So, it is designed to protect from an electrical surge from the meter moving forward, right? My EMC (electrical cooperative) offers this, but it only covers electric-motor devices (appliances) and does NOT cover electronics.
Also, it does nothing if the surge begins after the device. For instance, my neighbor's house got hit by lightning a few years back and the homes adjacent and across the street from his had a surge come across the telephone line.
The above event killed two DirecTV DVR, an Xbox (original, before the 360), a home router (network router for the home computer network), and one of the computers. A whole house protection system as offered by the EMC would have done nothing for me.
And then you have to ask what entry points for electrical surges doesn't it cover. What if a surge comes in from coax?
A whole house surge protector will protect everything in the house from an electrical surge originating outside the house, subject to limits of the device. Very expensive or sensitive equipment in the home would benefit from a local surge suppressor at the appliance.
To protect against surges from the telephone or cable tv line they need their own surge protection. The better quality plug in protectors for computers and tv's have separate jacks through which to route telephone and cable circuits. So the answer is to purchase protectors for those sources.
By the way, surge protectors depend on an excellent ground of your home wiring. So the connection from the main breaker panel to the earth has to be a good one.
I understand everything you said before you said it. I was attempting to point out to the OP that a whole house means little if that is the only thing done. Also, I was attempting to point out those examples in which electrical coops offer, but overly limit what is covered.
For instance, I have a lot more money in electronics than I do in appliances with electric motors. The EMC offering is token in this respect.
I'm sorry, I didn't mean the message for you. I intended to reply to an earlier post.
Wayne - If IIRC you are an electrician.... Can you explain how the whole house surge protectors are connected?
Attached are some pics of what I had in my last house. There was also a subpanel in the house which I think was fed by the left panel that had only the 1 two pole breaker in it.
For others who may not know exactly what the pictures show - the devices with the green lights on them are the surge protectors.
I'm not an electrician. As for your question, though, generally a whole house surge protector is installed at the main panel. Physically it won't fit inside the panel, it would be installed through a knockout. The protector would be installed on its own breaker, and the closer the breaker is to the main breaker, the better. It even helps to trim the leads so they are no longer than needed (without stressing the wires). The protector should be installed at the main panel, not the subpanel.
The instructions that come with the device should be followed, though. I see your panel is outdoors, so of course you'd have to purchase a device and mounting hardware suitable for outdoors.
It looks like you had 320/400 amp service. Those are both "main" panels. It goes under the rule that you have have up to 6 main disconnects if they are all grouped together. I could only make out the AC on the one breaker. My guess is that panel also supplied the furance heat strips and possibly other 240 loads such as dryer and stove.And it would make sense that the other panel feed a sub that had all of the 120 loads on it.And each panel has an internal surge arrestor. That is the "breaker" with lights on it.They are not as "strong" as the true whole house protectors, but are probably all that is needed unless you are on the top of the highest hill for 2 miles and and area that gets constant thunderstorms.
.
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
How can one tell if the ground on a circuit is a "good one"?Many old houses have no ground at all on receptacles.
Many houses built in the 40's to 70's have an 18ga ground wire in a 12-2 NM cable.
Most houses built in the 80's to early 90's have a 14ga ground in a 12-2 NM cable.
Many houses built with flexible conduit rely on that conduit for ground.BruceT
When a surge suppressor operates it sends the surge down the grounding conductor. For a suppressor in the main panel the grounds to the individual circuits don't really pertain. In the main panel there should be a grounding conductor, which is a copper conductor of good size, firmly in good connection with the grounding bus bar. This conductor should be routed in one continuous piece to a electrode that has good contact with the earth. Something like a grounding rod or two, or a metal water pipe. If a water pipe, there can be nothing between the connection and the earth that would impede a good electrical connection, such as a water meter or a section of plastic pipe.
There are other effective grounds spelled out in the code.
An electrician can measure the resistance to ground if there is any doubt, such as for a system in a desert area where the earth is very dry, or a rocky area where the grounding electrode cannot be very deep.
I'm sorry. I read your post carelessly, thinking that you meant the ground paths from individual surge protectors to the panel.But now that that is cleared up, what difference would there be in performance of a surge protector power block under the different sizes of circuit grounding wires presently in use for 20 amp circuits; conduit, 16ga bare copper, 14ga bare copper 12ga bare copper?BruceT
I really don't know. Surges are quite unpredictable, and there are only a few people in industry and academia who are close to understanding them.
I think the last person who really understood them was Steinmetz.
A society that presumes a norm of violence and celebrates aggression, whether in the subway, on the football field, or in the conduct of its business, cannot help making celebrities of the people who would destroy it. --Lewis H. Lapham
> The above event killed two DirecTV DVR, an Xbox (original, before the 360), a home router (network router for the home computer network), and one of the computers. A whole house protection system as offered by the EMC would have done nothing for me.Out in the garage, where our cable connection comes in, I have a "entertainment center" plugstrip with a surge protector for the cable connection. The cable goes through that before it goes to the cable modem. (We don't get cable TV, but also, of course, have lightning arrestors for the rooftop antenna cable and the rotor cable.)When I used phone modems I installed (after having problems) surge protectors on all the modem connections.
This country will not be a permanently good place for any of us to live in unless we make it a reasonably good place for all of us to live in. --Theodore Roosevelt
One thing to bear in mind is surge protection is additive. Each one reinforces the one behind it. Think of layers of protection. The other thing is you have to protect every wire coming into your house and have them all grounded to the same point. This is best done at the service entrance and you want all of your inputs to be there with each protector tied to the ground electrode there. Don't let the cable, telco or satellite guy talk you into accepting them driving a separate rod that is not bonded to your electrical ground electrode.
The differences in "ground" will be reconciled in your equipment.
Then when you put a point of use protector at a particular piece of equipment, be sure it protects every wire going into that piece of equipment.
Find out how the indicator lights work on your protectors and make sure to look at them regularly. When in doubt, replace the protector. They do give up a bit of life for every surge they eat.