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the fundamental problem with solar energy is there isn't enough of it..
every solar panel ever made doesn't provide enough energy for 1% of the nations needs..
NO one system is the magic bullet,, to reach indepence it's going to use every single source avialable..
Just goes to show you how few a panels have been produced ... ain't it a shame?
From my paneled friends they understand the threshold numbers don't work in favor of volume. Another words things wouldn't be massively cheaper if demand suddenly increased. Incrementally but not massively..
Another words if someone suddenly figured out a way to make the rest of the system nearly free the tipping point to low cost production would require over 50% of the nations energy be supplied by solar.
Since the ideal location for solar is the arrid southwest that would require something like a square 300 miles on each side. However transmisson losses would negate much of the value of that production. As you move further north the area gets over 1000 miles per side due to the suns angle and rain and snow losses..
It's a shame that more funding isn't put into solar energy. I found this somebody posted somewhere, which I rearranged in order of miles:http://www.evworld.com/general.cfm?page=insider&year=7&extedition=133Energy Source Miles Driven/Acre Per Year
Solar Photovoltaics 2,250,000
Solar Concentrating 2,000,000
Biodiesel (Algae) 370,000
Wind 180,000
Ethanol (Switchgrass) 32,500
Biodiesel (Palm Oil) 31,000
Ethanol (Corn) 18,000
Biodiesel (Canola/Rape) 6,100
Biodiesel (Soybean) 2,400The nice thing about the photovoltaics is that it can be distributed nicely, on a piece of roof here, side of a building there, and connected by wires into the grid. You can't say that easily about any of the other means of tapping energy falling on the earth's surface.Edited 10/21/2008 8:39 am ET by DickRussell: How do I get the columns of numbers to line up. I first used tabs, then edited to replace with real spaces.
Edited 10/21/2008 8:41 am ET by DickRussell
Shfiting the costs from personal to tax payer based is really a matter of distribution not of reducing costs.
Yes we as a country benefit from use of solar. So some justification can be made..
However if something isn't economically viable (such as crude oil use) it should fail on it's own merits rather than be subsidised.
I'm not saying that efforts shouldn't be expended towards solar I simply feel that for solar to become really viable innovation is called for not added funding..
It's going to be broken not by improving existing thought processes but by some hungary guy in his garage (much like PC were) striking off in a new direction. I hope he becomes the next Bill Gates..
300 miles on a side ... sounds like a good solar regenerative fuel cell system to me!
Then the distribution losses ... hmmm ... always issues ... damn those laws of thermo!!
The biggest energy resource is that of eliminating wasted energy ... that energy that is produced, bought, sold, and that you put so much sweat into ... and then literally just throw it out the window like you had all the money in the world. Everyone does it. Many don't even realize it ... to me it's like driving a car without a basic realization of how that car works ... I can't shake that idea of how that can be ... but I was raised tinkering w/ that stuff ... so it is only natural and that is one thing I have difficulty understanding someone else's point of view (cars) ... I can understand people not understanding energy stuff ... go figure.
Solar water heating is a pretty good idea in most areas of the country. Can't believe they don't do more of it in the Southwest ... can't believe it isn't required ... And economically it isn't that bad, either. Maybe you were talking photovoltaic?
Correction ... there is so much solar energy we don't know what to do with it. Well we do, we just don't collect and use it.
The problem I have is the lack of public utilities that want to make it possible for consumers to generate their own power. I live in Texas where sun shine is plentiful however, you would think I was trying to put a nuclear reactor in my back yard. They do their best to make it so any type of home owner initiative is met with the most possible resistance. I could use a NG power cell if one was available at a reasonable price.I would love to do my part however, I've been met with so much resistance, as well as the cost issue, that it makes it not worth the time. Now if my name was T Boone Pickens then I could get some where....
education is the answer.. find out from those who have them how they went about getting them.. look too into SanDiego's programs for their supportive data..
Solar has a bad name in our area. Many of the upstarts have gone out of business. There were a few builders that did some solar years ago. Without the buy-in from the De-regulated utility companies it's a wash.The only home in our block that had solar(DHW only) quit working years ago and the folks let the house go back to the bank. I don't think that education is the problem, I think they (utility companies) don't want the home owners cutting into the lucrative electric generation business. They would be losing out on that 14 + cent a K-watt.Just my 2 cents ...
Oh I understand your reasoning and logic..
However when I built my totally unconventional never been built before house I did so much research that I knew chapter and verse excactly where stuff was authourised in building codes.. by reciting it to the building inspector and have him looking it up a few times my totally unconventional construction went thru like a breeze..
This in a town where the building inspector is known to asked for engineering studies in how to chew gum.. (I'm exagerating...Slightly<grin>)
Since I was a D-I-Y with virtaully no prior building experiance he had good reason to worry.. however because I could speak his language I knew where the gems were hidden and thus avoided the traps.
Same with you.. I'm sure there are people you can contact who know how to dig out gems that allow you to do what you want to. Don't expect to have the powers that be find them for you.. You're right they have an incentive to keep you from doing it.. But I'm absolutely sure they are out there.. Maybe not easy to find but they are there and once you recite chapter and verse they can't prevent you.
Game, set, and match
"I don't think that education is the problem, I think they (utility companies) don't want the home owners cutting into the lucrative electric generation business. They would be losing out on that 14 + cent a K-watt."Then go off grid. The POCO don't have anything to do with that.BTW, the power company is not making 14 cent/kWh.That is paying for transmission lines and distribution and the power plant beside paying for the cost of fuel and operation.And they supply that 24x7.What you want to do is to supply your own during the middle of the day when power usageage is average.Then when the power usage peaks and is high (about 3-8 pm) you want the power from the POCO. And they had to still have the same generators and they have had to have them running and wasting power waiting a cloud to come over or the sun to drop..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
You make a valid point, I believe that homeowners should set up battery packs to run their house during hours of darkness.
That would allow more efficient use of the electric companies power generation. Hot sunny days would provide enough power to meet airconditioning needs (the highest fluctuation in power usage and the need to add so much capacity)
The real problem utilities have with homeowner generated power entering the grid is reliability. They still need to have the capacity to run the whole grid without you but they can't sell it and recover their investment when you are pitching in. As long as this is just a little hobby for a few people it is not a big problem but if a significant number of people did it, balancing the grid might be a nightmare. Imagine a sunny day, then a cloud moves across the city. They might have to suddenly come up with several hundred megawatts and then shut them back down.
the fundamental problem with solar energy is there isn't enough of it..
There is more than enough of it, but we just don't have the means to collect enough of what is available.
jt8
No, there is plenty of it.Just not properly distributed in both location and time..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I can remember when DVD players were $400 or better. Now you can find off brand ones for $10-20.
I'm not necessarily saying I'd want the solar panel junky equivalent of a $10 DVD player, but the point is if you can take something that sold for $400+ and maybe get the price down to around $50, then maybe everyone could afford it.
If the technology was cheap enough then you could buy enough that you have power to spare when the sun is shinning. You then find ways to store it. For example batteries. Or at the utility level when they use the surplus power to pump water up a mountain and then when it's dark the water runs back down hill turning turbines along the way.
The key is to make the technology very, very inexpensive.
jt8
"f the technology was cheap enough then you could buy enough that you have power to spare when the sun is shinning. You then find ways to store it. For example batteries. Or at the utility level when they use the surplus power to pump water up a mountain and then when it's dark the water runs back down hill turning turbines along the way."Those aren't cheap either.And lots of work to get approvals for building the lake(s) needed for a pump back system.Another method would be to use the solar in a completely different manor.That is to generate hydrogen.But again you need a big investment in storage and methods of using the hdyrogen..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Everyone I know of with a solar roof mounted system got rid of it when the roof started leaking. That is where I got my pool heater panels ,,, a roofer.
The true limiting factor for solar cells is that they use rare earth elements that are expensive and limited in supply. China is the main source of rare earth elements. Try to build a huge quantity of solar cells and you deplete the available supply of rare earth elements and drive up the cost. The rare earth elements are a strategic resource and controlled by China.