How about some discussion on strawbale building?
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With my mouth I will give great thanks to the Lord; I will praise Him in the midst of the throng. For He stands at the right hand of the needy, to save them from those who would condemn them to death.
- Psalms 109:30-31
Is there still a place in america for a building style that is so location dependent? I ask because I've worked on strawbale buildings in the area that I'm from (Eastern Washington), and I think they're a great fit for the area. The climate is dry, but with lots of temp variation, there is easy access to high quality strawbales, no long wet seasons, etc. But I'm not an advocate of building a strawbale house in wet areas- Washington or oregon coast, for example.
But nowadays, building is very standardized across the country, I find. Little variations like strapping vs. not, plaster vs. drywall, etc., are not much in the big scheme of things.
zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
I live in dry south central Wyoming. Think I would have to take snow drift into consideration and waterproof on the lower half of the building. Normally snow gets swept here because it is so dry.
Hmmm- I've not heard of people having problems with snow drifting causing moisture. Strawbale buildings with mud plaster have been standing in the plains states for more than a hundred years, and I think they would have similar issues.
The difficulty with sb is vapor barriers- there's not really a good place for them. Plaster/stucco is applied directly to the SB on inside and out, so there is no room for a rain screen wall on the outside, or a vapor barrier on the inside. It's important to detail the sb so that there are no areas with major air leakage through the wall, so that warm, moist air can't be cooled and drop lots of water into the wall.
Are you considering a sb house, or are you just interested in the construction technique?zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
I am actually considering building a strawbale house. Have to sell it to city planner and inspector. The planner is for sure on my side in the matter.The bottom of the bale wall can be wrapped for waterproofing. Also the top of the wall.Plan on using an HRV to expel excess moisture.
Since VaTom and I were just discussing it, load bearing sb or not?
There are some things you can do to waterproof, like you mentioned, but it's hard to waterproof as well as I would on a stick framed building, especially in a wet area (like the bay area, where I am now). Stucco bonded with straw, and reinforced with stucco wire, is a very strong wall component. I wouldn't really want to use a system that didn't bond the stucco to the straw, IMHO.zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
Yes I see what you mean about bonding the stucco to the bales. I will probably be lucky to get the officials to okay infill. Structural might be a long shot.My daughter lives in San Fran. Wouldn't want to build in a wet climate like that!If infill is used I believe the foundation only needs to support the structure not the bales. Just stack bales on the slab inside the structure.
Don't underestimate infill sbs. . . it doesn't really take that much wood to hold up a roof. It takes a lot more to provide a good frame to put a wall on. I think a good sb designer can come up with plans for a post and beam strawbale house that doesn't use much wood, and has fairly low material costs, and does a great job insulating in a climate like yours.
Don't forget, all the door and window bucks will be wood either way- it's not much further to extend those to a top plate, and add a few more posts where needed.
Is this one story or two? I have a friend that built a two story load bearing house. It would make me nervous, since the sbs could compress while the posts holding the second floor on the inside of the house didn't. That's only a concern until the stucco and plaster is on though.zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
Structure will be one story. Slab on grade with radiant heat. I am an owner builder and am trying to build economically so I end up with no mortgage. That's the goal. I understand lots of labor is involved and am not taking on this project to resale.If strawbale doesn't fly will probably go with an icf building.Wanted to install SIPS on the roof but that is way out of my budget. Planning at this time on a cantilevered truss to allow room for lots of insulation. R-49 is recommended in our climate.
With structural strawbale, it is difficult to get a consistently level top plate for your rafters. Your roof lines and water shedding qualities depend on the top plates being level, and staying level over time.
Variations in bale density account for many problems, as do the plate systems that are used to compress the walls. Getting the wall tops level AND at the same degree of compression resistance is the real challenge.
With a post-and-beam frame, variations in bale density are not so detrimental to wall performance. You should still speck out your bales for size and compressibility. You also have a dry roof over your head while the bales are stacked. Big eaves with skookum guttering - and a full perimeter gallery - is a good bet for strawbale const'n in a wet climate.
The look and feel of a well executed strawbale house is very appealing. They are remarkably quiet inside. Get the best windows and doors you can afford, to protect the quiet and the inherent R-values. They are also a specialized product for resale purposes.
Edited 3/11/2007 11:44 pm ET by Pierre1
Thanks for your comments. What is skookum guttering? A full perimeter gallery I assume means eaves around the entire perimeter.
skookum = very well designed and executed.
By gallery, I meant a roofed, full-width, full perimeter, 'wrap-around the whole house' porch.
Pay lots of attention to how high out of the ground your foundation rises, esp. on a sloped lot. Keep final grade, foundation and site drainage top-of-mind. Would be nice if the house was not in a perpetually shaded spot, and if winds could readily breeze around it.
The lot is a city lot with a very slight slope from NW to SE. Lots of sun available. It is a very dry climate here. Worst of the moisture would be winter snow and even the snow is usually dry. I worry somewhat about snowdrifts collecting on the north side of the house.
Snowdrifts - through careful landscaping with parallel evergreen hedges (but you're in a dry climate, so maybe some form of steep berming or temporary snow-fencing) on the upwind side, much of that snow would deposit upwind, or be diverted elsewhere.
Structures diagonal to the wind's prevailing direction would divert the snow into another direction.
If your area has several winter warm spells such that your drift system 're-surfaces' automatically ready for the next storm, all the better.
Catskinner's point about the costs needs careful examination:
For example, are your plumbing, electrical and HVAC contractors sufficiently familiar with the adaptations that will allow their work to pass the applicable codes? Are the local building officials on side? Do you know how much more these sub-trades will cost you?
I have seen one strawbale home lying abandoned, their owners bankrupted by runaway costs. The overdue Visa bills and maxed-out line of credit statements scattered on the kitchen counter among the dead flies told the sad story. Sure was a sweet looking homestead though.
If you have a proven plan, a reasonable site, building experience, willing and able friends, pockets deeper than you'd think, on-side building officials and sub-trades, then go for it - strawbales make magnificient specialty homes.
Good info on snow fencing. Thanks.The real goal is to build an economical and energy efficient structure. My husband and I plan to do most of the work ourselves. That is the reasoning for looking into strawbale and ICF. We believe we could accomplish most of the structure ourselves or with the help of a few friends using these construciton techniques. Plumbing, electrical and heating contractors are ourselves. We are not pros but have done these things in the past on DIY remodeling.
The local officials are looking at information we have supplied them.Our plan is a simple rectangle. The money is a concern however we want to put most of the money in a tight structure and efficient heating and appliances. we do not have a fancy lifestyle. We can make a place good and are resourceful and tasteful in that aspect. We don't want to build the Taj Mahal. For instance we have several nice pieces of travertine we want to incorporate in the kitchen or bathroom for countertop. We have some old doors that have been refinished we would like to use in the interior. I once pulled a maple headboard out of the trash, rebuilt it along with some old cedar fence boards and it is now in use in my mother's bedroom and it really does look nice.I am positive we can do this.
<<My husband and I plan to do most of the work ourselves. That is the reasoning for looking into strawbale and ICF. We believe we could accomplish most of the structure ourselves or with the help of a few friends using these construciton techniques.>>Veery important detail, that.ICF, yes, you can do it, no problem. It's easy. Just use more bracing than they tell you to use and hire a proffessional boom pump (not a line pump) operator with a good rep.Strawbale, well, I don't know you, and it's none of my business, but based on observations of similar situations you might have no friends, no money, and no marriage by the time you are done.
What brand of ICF is easiest to use? ARXX are available locally and plan to go see a guy in Colorado that has Phoenix blocks. Some have a dovetail sort of interlock and some are straight. Which is best? Also may be a source for Formtech in Colorado. I am in south central Wyoming. Not a lot of choice for local supplies.
Local is usually best. I used Amvic, they were great, but the real cost is shipping!
Phoenix is trying to make block more affordable, but they keep promising a local plant and have yet to deliver, afaik.
Treat every person you meet like you will know them the rest of your life - you just might!
My impression of AARX is that they are good quality.I agree with Brian -- local and good seem to go together more often than not for a whole bunch of reasons, tech support, assistance, and cooperation not being the least.Ten years ago there were just a few ICF suppliers, now there are dozens, some much better than others. I predict many will fall by the wayside as we sort out the better quality from the worse.What you don't want more than anything is a blowout. After that, you want ease of installation for your subs, especially drywall or plaster.Also getting the rebar in the right place and being able to stay on layout is handy.Is there Reward dealer anywhere near you?
kazm.....
i read the entire thread.. and i return to your original post..
<<<<<The real goal is to build an economical and energy efficient structure. My husband and I plan to do most of the work ourselves. That is the reasoning for looking into strawbale and ICF>>>
two people doing most of the work..
i would go with stick frame.. you can build a very energy efficient home with conventional framing.. and nothing is easier than conventional framing to build
also .. it sounds like you have never done icf before... so you would spend a lot of time and effort figuring it out..
i think icf is great... and sips , too
but for your stated goal.. i'd stic to wood frame
and no way would i consider strawbaleMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, that hadn't occurred to me, but as I read your post, I think you are right on the money with that.1) Learning curve -- no doubt about it. It takes a few ICF houses to get the hang of it.2) Energy efficiency -- I've done double-frame stud walls to match the look and feel of ICF. If the insulation is done properly it works quite well.3) Aesthetics -- same. You can make double-frame look like anything.4) DIY -- most compelling reason. ICF can be done, stick frame is probably easier, especially if there is a windy climate. High sustained wind can be a ##### with ICF. And mistakes in stick frame are far easier to correct.Quality of life while building DIY is priceless. They are trying to build a life together, not ruin it, and we've seen both results.Good idea.
Mike,
I'm with you on the ICF thing.
There isn't a great deal to learn about it to be able to handle a simple rectangle job, but you won't learn it all on your first job or your second. By the time you do the third, you will have it mostly under control if you start with a good basic understanding of what's straight, square, plumb and level.
The consequences of a mistake are serious and expensive, too.
It looks like child's play but it isn't quite. The learning curve is short, but steep.
Ron
am positive we can do this
You probably can, if you are located somewhere that the inspections won't drive you crazy. Just remember that it takes a long time to do something you've never done before, like build a house.
DIY straw bales houses remind me of the people in the 60's who built boat hulls out of ferro-cement. They mostly forgot, or never knew, that the hull was the cheap part if you didn't count the time it took. Even now, in backyards across America, cement hulls sit forlornly, waiting for decks, rigging, spars, engines, sails, etc.
Another consideration is that there are lots of people on this forum and elsewhere, who will be happy to give you advice as your project moves along if you build it using conventional framing, but there may not be much straw bale help around. When I built my house in the early 70's, it was extremely helpful to look at houses under construction to see how it was done.
Good luck.
I was involved with a small straw bale house (about 28' x 28') that my sister talked my father into building when he was in his mid 70's about 10 years ago.I'll echo the cautions that have been posted. They take way more labour than anyone can describe (plastering walls multiple times is a killer) to build compared to conventional houses. You do have to have adaptable subs that are willing to work on something different because wiring/plumbing in the walls need to be done as the walls go up and have their own special problems of attachment etc. Best is to confine all plumbing to interior partition walls. The bales can compress (ours did) with the resulting roof and gutter wave, therefor I'm more in favour of non-load bearing construction. In a small house such as ours the window and doors require nearly as much wood as if it was done as a frame and infill. If you know you can get dense evenly packed bales (3 wire) then load bearing isn't an issue. The infill system allows you to get the roof on thus keeping the walls dry until the plastering is done. Trying to work when its dry, between rainy days, with the tarping/untarping waltz can be frustrating (unless you can do it in an air supported bubble of plastic ;-). I also recommend large roof overhangs on all walls or better still a porch/veranda all the way around.Straw bale does make for a very comfortable home in the end in both summer and winter. The little house we built is heated in the winter with a load in the wood stove in the morning and in the evening with a third when the temp drops below -20C. That being with older used windows and doors, not the latest on the market. They are quiet and have a feeling of solidity and comfort because of the thick walls. When I retire I'll still consider one if I decide to move into the boonies. After more reading after helping with my father's I thought that boxes/panels of steel studs with the wire mesh and bales inside, could be prefabricated and stored under cover until needed. Then brought out on erection day and bolted to the slab and screwed to each other. Plywood attached to the outside of the studs and the plaster or cement poured into the space between. After curring the plywood comes off and is moved to the next wall to go up. The finish coats to follow would require a lot less work to complete. See! Another way to make a straw house. :-)The last thing I'll say is to read as much as you can and be as thorough as you can with you design and plans before you start to build. Best of luck.
Hey all. Don't know whether I should start a new thread with this or not but I will start here.I have been designing and building homes for going on 25 years. About 4-5 years ago I did a 6 mo natural building program which included dry stack foundation, full round timber framing, cob, straw bale, rammed earth etc. I have been asked to inspect a 10 year old straw bale house for clients that the owner (of the SB house) has said contains 10% cement in the second exterior coat and 5% in the interior finish. While I have read about the evils of cement finishes over straw I have no firsthand experience with the potential issues that this can create.Can any of you point me to a resource for asking about this concern that I and the client have.Cheers Greg
Writing from the inside of my ICF house, I would recommend ICFs highly. Very highly.
The shell of the house is such a small percentage of the total cost - I do not see the attraction to strawbales. Here in the mid-atlantic, (humidity) they would turn to mold very quickly.
I have read almost everything on them, and in my younger days tried many other construction methods the same crowd recommends, only later to go back and replace the work with standard methods. This is not a soapbox, just my experience and your mileage may vary.
Treat every person you meet like you will know them the rest of your life - you just might!
Zak, these two shots from 10 or more years ago were in my files. A strawbale house under construction in the Finger Lakes Region of New York state. It was to be fitted with all 6-over-6 salvaged windows (c.1860).
This is not a dry region. It would be interesting to get the owners' opinions now, a decade later.
View Image
The second photo shows the exterior plaster partially applied.
Allen
I understand there's a straw bale house here somewhere. Along with a couple of tire houses (not earthships). Non-structural bales strike me as expensive insulation. But I only do underground, and know the Spokane guy who thinks bales are appropriate for underground too. He seems to think bales are great everywhere.Walls for a structure are the easy part. Pile up pretty much anything. It's the roof that gets interesting. And yes, I've seen structural bale arches. Have to see my building dept. approve one to believe it. Don't know of one approved anywhere requiring snow loads.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I would disagree about the structural/non structural aspect-
Non load bearing sb buildings can sometimes have less wood, and thus less materials cost, that load bearing sb buildings. Also, the construction schedule can be more open with sb infill. I think sb can be a very economical insulation, if you are the sort of person who wants to spend time (low skill labor) rather than money. Lots of people are not that sort, and for them, sb is a bad idea. I don't want to argue that point.
The other nice thing about non-load bearing is the ability to set the wall tops evenly, to make the roof easier. Sbs have a tendency to compress, if you don't preload them enough.
I personally don't see the attraction in living in a house made of used car tires. I guess they're plentiful? Have they got other benifits?zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
High mass vs low mass. Take your pick. I like annual heat storage. The non-structural bales are only inexpensive to buy. Lots of labor. Fine for owner-builders who don't value theirs. Those of us who look at the total cost, not so good.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
The Rose Fellowship is given each year to various people working with non-profits in a construction-related program. We applied once (didn't get it), but a past recipient spent his time working with straw bale housing on an American Indian reservation. He wrote a book on it that's gotten some good press.
http://www.redfeather.org/boh.html
I've worked on a few SB homes over the years, watched the technology (?) evolve, and I cannot figure out no matter how hard I try what would be the rational motivation to build that way.
Just about everything everyone has said so far is true according to my experience. The one thing nobody has really dug into for you yet is this; it will not be cheap. I don't care how much labor you do yourself, it will not be cheap. Building with straw bales is expensive.
There is no way that the additional cost will be made up in energy savings any time soon. Also consider the cost of how that 1.5 sf per linear foot of wall adds up very fast. You are giving away a lot of space inside that wall. And from a project management perspective SB is a nightmare.
I've done about as many ICF homes as SB, and I will say that I would build my own home with ICF. I am impressed. The cost of an ICF home will be about 4% higher than the same wood frame home, and the energy savings, quiet, and durability are amazing.
But if you have your heart set on SB for some other reason, I'll be happy to tell you about the easiest ways I've found.
One of the great disadvantages of strawbale, adobe, or rammed earth in my area is that the county assessors' office calculates value based on square footage of building external. This can be a big deal long-term when walls are 3' thick.
Okay ICF has a learning curve. What are the common mistakes that are made using icf?
kazm
They are the same mistakes as any amateur work, not straight, not plumb, not level, not flat not square and not on layout. Unlike, wood, though, it is bloody hard to fix afterward.
Ron