does anybody know what is the most correct decking of choice this year? What are the arguments? It seems meranti is clearing hillsides in the Philippines.. folks are loving Ipe.. (me to). I am going to start looking at some of the green build site lists etc. but I was curious what anybody here might have to say.
Thanks
arthur
Replies
Is a patio out of the question? They can last centuries.
If you stick with cedar decking and non toxic finishes, everything will mulch back into the earth when it's torn off in 25 years. That seems pretty green to this country carpenter.
Remodeling contractor who once visited the Glass City.
On the THIS OLD HOUSE project in Austin they are using Trex. And it is being rated by some local "green group".
And they say that since it uses recycle wood and plastic products that they get gree credit for it.
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I prefer the solyent green version myself
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Me too - the process grinds up hippie carpenters (to make it "green") and forms the slurry into planks.
I talked to a Trex rep at a show last year, and she was saying that most or all of the plastic they use is recycled. I'd imagine the sawdust is post-industrial. Seems like that's good.
It kind of depends on your (or your client's) definition of green.
Ipe is fantastic, and it lasts dozens of years, but it also is often harvested using clearcutting techniques and pretty questionable forced labor practices.
If you're getting cedar or PT from a local source, you're cutting down trees, but saving on shipping, which is better for emissions and ozone.
Trex is 97% recycled material (though they're reducing that content on at least some of the styles in order to get better aesthetics). It's made from polyethylene which breaks down to mostly carbon and hydrogen when burnt (just read that in a FHB article this morning).
I used to have a source for FSC certified Ipe, but it's harder for them to certify chain of custody outside the country, so now it comes mostly from plantations. I can get FSC certified cedar up here in the NW, so at least it's coming from local well managed forests.
There's big debate about whether wood is the best "green" decking as it's renewable (provided it's harvested responsibly). Composite decking gets props, because it lasts longer and decreases need of more materials, shipping, and maintenance.
I don't know what the best answer is for myself. I usually talk to the client, make sure they understand the pros and cons of each one, and go with what's best for their situation and desire. It seems like anyone can make a valid argument about what is best and why.
All that being said, IMHO if you can get something locally you're doing a good thing right off the bat.
Good luck.
Hey that's a great summary. Yes the truth is that green building materials have so many qualifiers its hard to know where to start. Something that is now becoming more understood is how 'green' can differ from one project location to another and that is part of the danger in the points system for green. "Green" for one project may not be for another right down the road. If you spend many gallons of gas shipping some recycled sustainable materials across the country to your job in order to qualify for the 'green', you just wasted everything that was being gained. I didn't know you could get FSC certified Ipe. I'll probably just have to truck it from the NW (after it was probably harvested in brazil and shipped here.) I thought Ipe was coming from Brazil or Philippines. I think i'll try find FSC certified cedar. . and like Jim Blodgett said it will compost. . Thanks for the info.arthurhttp://www.thesmallbuildingcompany.com
Hi Arthur,Didn't mean to confuse you about the FSC Ipe, That's actually not coming from the NW. It was coming to the NW from Texas I think, but actually being harvested down in South America. I'm still not sure how it was FSC certified. I think the importer from Texas may have been certified and so somehow the Ipe was getting certified. But I know it was a little bit of a sticky wicket. I think that's why it was only available for a little while. The FSC cedar is coming from the Warm Springs reservation which is not too far outside of town.I'm glad to hear people paying attention to the different aspects of green. I used to be pretty gung ho about it, (and used to work with someone who was REALLY gung ho) and then started realizing that it all depends on what the situation is, and that to be in this industry definitely requires some temperance. I'm happy that some people are really pushing the boundaries, but I'm also glad that if I need to go down to the local lumberyard and get some KD studs that at least not all of them are comig from far away, and that I'm supporting the local economy, even if they're not certified.I'm still trying to get comfortable bringing up green aspects of building with different clients as well. Not everyone wants to hear about it, and I don't want to make people feel guilty if they choose not to go with a "greener" option.
All I have to say though is that the first time you get to stuff the walls with recycled blue jean cotton insulation instead of fiberglass, you'll be thanking your lucky stars. It's so nice not to have to suit up to install, and hey, if you're tired you can just lay down on it and take a nap!Paul
"Ipe is fantastic, and it lasts dozens of years, but it also is often harvested using clearcutting techniques and pretty questionable forced labor practices."Cuirious what your source is on that statement. From all I have read, this is now harvested in re-plantation manageable harvest situations, providing jobs where there once were none. Some of the replanting is going to Lyptus trees, a hybridThis is the wood that was once destroyed in slash abd burn subsistence agriculture where the tribe moveedd every 2-3 years to slash and burn another patch for planting crops in the rainforest.
That is now changed to harvesting lumber for sale to the gringoes and working at a paid job and buying beef for protein instead of grubbing for insects and hunting monkeys to eat.But that is just what I read. I haven't been there so maybe you can correct me.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I'm just going on what I read as well. I haven't been to the area so what I'm writing is just my opinion as garnered from other opinions and hopefully some facts.
I know a lot of the tropical wood is being plantation grown. Some are good, some are still subject to some pretty dicey practices. (forced labor as I understand it, both in plantations and in the forests)
Plantation grown is way better than slash and burn, but from what I understand can be a far cry from what plantation grown means in the states.
I definitely support it as a means of bringing in economic vitality to some regions. I'm mainly going on a couple of articles that my clients forwarded me (big "greenies") when I was going to build them a deck. They went back and forth between trex and Ipe, and ultimately went with Trex due to what they had gathered about the current practices of some (not all) Ipe harvesters down south-a-ways.
If I can get the articles from them again I will pass them along.
So, just my opinion on the matter, and in the wise words of some old guy, "opinions are like a**holes, everyone's got one, and they all stink."
Paul
Hi Paul
Thanks for the reply and would be glad to see information.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
As a side note, Lyptus is pretty.
Anyone know what type of energy it takes to produce composite deckings vs. lumber?
I never bought the idea that trex is "green".To me, recycling is taking a used material and re-making it into the same material again and again. Trex doesn't do that. Once the plastic is put into trex, that's the end of the line. .I suppose you could make a case that SYP is "green". I think most of the SYP from the south is raised on "tree farms". So it's harvested and re-planted every 30 years or so.
There is but one just use of power and it is to serve people. [George Bush]
But what would happen to those products if not made into trex?.
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
The stuff could actually be recycled.To me, recycling is making the same stuff into what it orignially was again. Like glass is melted down and made into nwe glass, plastis is made into plastic, etc. Like I said - This is just my own opinion. But most 'green" ideas seem to be based on opinion.
A bug in a computer program can be changed to a feature by documenting it.
Well, trex takes polyethelene products and remakes them into polyethelene products again.And since it hhas only been out for a dozen years or so, who knows if it will get recycled once again
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Recycling trex will never be an option. Since it isn't 100% plastic I don't think there's any way to make anything from it.And I don't think scrap trex will be a large volume product, so there will never be any incentive to try to set up a recycling system or process.
Leadership is the initiation and direction of endeavor in the pursuit of consequence. Anything else is criticism from janitors. [Royal Alcott]
Yeah, I heartilly agree, Boss. In "Cradle to Cradle" the authors call that "down cycling" as opposed to "recycling". They call for resource use and reuse as you describe, where the integrity of the initial resource is maintained, not depleted.Remodeling contractor who once visited the Glass City.
I'm with Wayne. The only truly green deck is a patio.
Nothing is 'truly' green. Even a patio is going to have energy overhead (be it concrete production or rock harvesting, etc.)
Nothing is 'truly' green. Even a patio is going to have energy overhead (be it concrete production or rock harvesting, etc.)
grass?
You make a good point.
Or maybe everything is green...enough.
Treat every person you meet like you will know them the rest of your life - you just might!
grass?FWIW - In the eco-sense, grass is not considered very green. Most lawns are sustained only through large applications of synthetic fertilizer and doses of herbicides. A lawn is mowed regularly (usually with a gasoline mower) and usually the clippings are sent to the land fill. Native plantings are more the "in" thing in "green" circles. My goal for many years is to have a house with absolutely no lawn to keep up. I may achieve that in the near future - I hope.
I used to hate grass - thought it was silly. But then I played soccer and ultimate at the park - what a hypocrite!
So whats the most green deck?
A flagstone patio (not trucked very far)? Concrete? Bricks? Clay can't be that bad... Ipe? Cedar? PT? Trex? Mulch? No deck. In fact, no house. Maybe a hemp yurt.
If grass doesn't make the grade, we're in a heap of trouble. Xeriscaping or whatever its called...ewww. (tirade not directed at you, CaseyR)
I think we need a new color - this green thing needs to be called on the carpet for what it is.
Treat every person you meet like you will know them the rest of your life - you just might!
what about green framing. i am building a deck for a client and they specified that no pressure treated faming was to be used.????? i made them perfectly aware of the fact that the deck would not last 1/4 as long, but they were insistent. they said they wanted it green. OK. so i'm using doug fir for the joists and hemlock for the posts. to try to stretch the life of the deck i won't be nailing any two joists together (as it will be an area for water to collect). they will all be nailed to blocking on 16"oc from both sides. the decking they chose was cedar 5/4x6.
my question to them was; is it still green when in a few years you need to build another deck, where the PT would have lasted twice (if not more) as long. another deck is all those raw materials x 2. ie maybe not better for the enviornment than a little PT.
they were sure they were making the right choice. said that in a few years everyone would be framing decks like that. it was really catching on. i made it clear to them that i would not stand by my work for more than a year if they chose to use non PT framing. they were fine with that. do i think it's foolish, of course, but if they want to pay more for a lesser product just to be trendy, fine by me.
I remember reading recently about borate treated framing lumber that's not toxic. Supposed to be for just the type applications you describe. I will try to dig that info out. That's what's tough for me, remembering what I read where when the opportunity finally presents itself to actually do something out of the ordinary.
Non toxic form oil is another one. Remodeling contractor who once visited the Glass City.
There was an article in either the last FHB or the one before it talking about the different types of PT, borate, etc.
I think borate treatment has problems with leaching out of wood at the moment- something they're hoping to solve, but until then, it doesn't sound like a good choice for decks. Better for plates and sills, where it won't get rainwater dripping off of it.
You're near olympia jim- shouldn't be too hard to get a few gallons of biodiesel to use as form oil. I haven't had the need for it myself, but friends of mine say it works great, and they don't get diesel fume headaches.zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
Use vegetable oil for form oil. Don't laugh; it's being done and is routinely spec'd by some architects & builders working in the healthy house sector. "Salad houses". Doesn't get much greener.
I'm sure that would work- biodiesel isn't that different from straight vegetable oil. But biodiesel is less viscous, I think it might be easier to pump from a garden sprayer.zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
"biodiesel for form oil"? That's a good idea. Remodeling contractor who once visited the Glass City.
Using nails instead of screws is green IMO. You can pop up the planks in ten years and make a light pass through the power planer. You can do this four or five times with redwood or ipe. Joists should be 16" centers. Screws will strip and break off and no one will want to ruin their planer knives resurfacing the planks. Good ol' redwood is as green as it gets. Most of the redwood is third growth now and the trees grow very fast. To preserve the joists and girders that are not pressure treated, brush on some copper green diluted. This will prevent fungal growth for the life of the joists and girders. Better yet is salvaged redwood. I have a source for miles of it. To further prevent rot, slather some "black jack" on the tops of your girders and joists.
I am always skeptical when anyone uses the word "sustainable". It an ambiguous buzz word. It can't be defined.
I tend to agree with your examples MikeI also hear in others voices some of the irk with all the new interest in this ambiguous green. I actually think some of the irk is because many of us feel like we have been burned. We always were or are naturally 'green'. If you really build from wood you are going to have a natural love and respect for the environment. The warmth and power of wood instills it. It grew from the power of sun and water, its alive. Some of the irk I think is because we know and care about this 'green' thing but no one seemed to care or was prepared to spend the extra money effort before. Every one always wanted quicker cheaper and now .. we have meanwhile trained ourselves to do it cheaper quicker. At least I know I am speaking for myself a little bit here. I helped assemble the first demo/model 'non-tox' cut away house in the LA convention center for Eco Expo in mid 90's. Every one was getting excited then.. but it faded. .making a living, I built whatever people wanted me to build. Now people are back to wanting GREEN building again. Sometimes it feels like they think its a fashion, like its a trendy thing. We just keep on building what they want. Now of course we have customers coming to us because of it. I do try and educate as much as I can. I always offer the options and explain. arthur
http://www.thesmallbuildingcompany.com
Bingo!
Took the words right outta my head.
You need to get some good screws Mike. GRK
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!