Working Definition of “Green Building”?
What’s your working definition of the term “Green Building”? What do you think are some of the elements that make a particular material or technique “green”?
What’s your working definition of the term “Green Building”? What do you think are some of the elements that make a particular material or technique “green”?
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Replies
What's the roofing material on that little cottage with white trim?
Nobody has a working definition? Or is it too boring a topic?
It's a really difficult topic. I wish I had a good answer. Some methods and materials are clearly green, others are much harder to assess. I find that a lot of the potentially green stuff falls in that latter category, and that one of the main problems is the difficulty in getting the info needed to make a clear choice.
go ahead and throw your def out there so we can pick it apart and jump up and down on it Jim, LOLI have yet to see somebody who uses the term actually define it objectively. I think you can make an argument for any material being a green material vs another one, but iit is in the way they are used together in an intelligent energy saving, long lasting design that makes a building "green"
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
(and David) Yes, that's exactly part of the challenge facing the Green building movement, it's very hard to define. I certainly don't have a definition myself. I'm just trying to figure out what makes sense to me.
How about this? What are some of the larger issues that would factor into your thinking about what is, or isn't, "green". Or "eco-responsible". Or "sustainable". Or whatever words we attach to that concept.
Certainly there are products we could chose to use, like water borne finishes and biodegradable form oil, that are a start. Or a jobsite recyling program. Those are specifics, for sure. But what about an overriding philosophy that would help us decide if a technique, or product, is really earth friendly or not? Some type of measuring stick to help us evaluate whatever we do day to day?
David, I've read your thoughts about the embodied energy required to get a yard of concrete into the forms on your jobsite. That's an excellent example of a larger consideration. What else are you thinking about?
One thing is certain, we have to get the dialouge(sp?) going.
Jim,
This is a great idea for a thread. Is a green building one in which the materials have low impact initially, or low impact over time?
Personally, I think a green building is any building that successfully uses resources and techniques to minimize impact on the earth. That means I'm OK with concrete buildings, polyurethane insulation, apartment buildings, and even OSB, because they either a) will withstand a lot so be standing longer, b) reduce resource usage over the years, c) require less acreage per capita so that land can be put to "greener" use and d) use "junk" resources that are otherwise useless.
So what would be the most green building? Perhaps a 40 story concrete walkup apartment with solar panels for siding and a windmill mounted on top, water all obtained by bucket in the central courtyard and carried to the home, basement is where all the veggies are grown hydroponically using mirrors to get sunlight to the plants and gravity for water. :)
I think a couple of important elements of defining "green building" would include not promoting "greed building". By this I mean the size and location of a residential house. I would argue that a couple who remodels an old house in an established neighborhood, even if using "non green" traditional construction materials, is "greener" than the two people building a 10,000 square foot home made of straw bale and off grid solar, located on a terraced ridgetop that used to be public recreation/wilderness.
cjgriz
Your example belies the fact that the population continues to grow. Build in a existing neighborhood and unless you figure out how to have more people occupy that same ground space you are not building green.
When I was born the countries population was around 100 million now it's 300 million likely to reach near 400 million before I die.
That means we need to put 4 times the number of people in the space we had 1 if we are to remain "green"
Got plans for building four story buildings?
jimblodgett
let me take a stab here,
Green building si simply a way to house people in a sustainable manner..
Thus if it takes thirty years to grow a tree to build a house that surives 30 years then you can say that that house is "green"
Technacally every aspect of a house should be "green" for it to claim greenness.
If You use energy from the sun to power your solar panel and then use that to saw the tree down you are remaining "green" if you use oil that took tens of tousands of years to develop then that house needs to survive tens of thousands of years..
I kind of doubt that there's an "official" definition, but my non-professional impression kind of meshes with Frenchy's, and kind of not. A "green" building is built with an appreciation for the non-financial "costs" of the materials, and similar appreciation for the non-financial "costs" of the ongoing energy consumption and maintenance, attempting to minimize (to a reasonable degree) these costs.Should be energy efficient (insulation, lighting, etc) -- more so than code requires, approaching "state of the art" -- but should also minimize other environmental costs during construction and use. Non-polluting energy used where possible (and energy "recycled" where possible), things like rainwater managed intelligently, materials chosen for low initial enviromental impact and long-term durability.In some cases a sort of "survivalist/isolationist" approach is seen, with photovoltaics, water recycling etc, but this seems to be done based on "opportunity" vs as a matter of course -- when something unique to the site or usage of the building suits it to this sort of thing it's done.One can go overboard on this (like everything), and insist that the copper used in wiring is mined in a "sustainable" fashion, but you can also pick the more practical approach of "paying" for the copper with efforts elsewhere that go beyond the minimum of your "green" standards.
Seven blunders of the world that lead to violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics without principle. --Mahatma Gandhi
DanH
I suspect that we are in agreement here. I see "green" as a goal not the end product..
I can claim green thru most of my house even though I will need at least 270 years to "prove" that claim (at least for some of it).
I used locally grown wood harvested in a sustainable manner. Yes I did use some gas to get the wood etc.. but it was all local, another words the minimum impact that I could have on the enviorment..
Time is a factor here. I'm in my late 50's if I had started in my 20's I could have harvested my trees with a crosscut saw, shaped them with an Adz, worked everything with hand tools etc..
I forget the name of that couple who re often credited with the start of the "green movement. They built their home themselves using found stones and other such locally sourced materials. They lived into their 90's.
But keep in mind you also see "green" buildings that are large office, lab, or manufacturing spaces. These clearly aren't built with wood harvested on the site, but with the usual steel and concrete. But they may, eg, use a lot more recycled materials, and consideration goes into, say, buying paint, so that VOC impact, etc, is taken into account.I'm remembering at least one such building has a sod roof (built in a concrete "wading pool" on the roof, not sod layed on rafters). The sod controls rainwater runoff, cools the building (through evaporation), filters pollutants out of the air, and absorbs CO2. Significant reduction in cooling load, IIRC.So I'm thinking that part of "being green" is "working smart" to let things serve multiple purposes, working with nature rather than fighting it.
Seven blunders of the world that lead to violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics without principle. --Mahatma Gandhi
Greetings,
I believe “Green Building†is a great subject to talk about, and should be implemented when possible. There are numerous definitions and guidelines.
A simple definition is provided by an outstanding organization: The Northwest EcoBuilding Guild:
â€What is a green building? On the simplest level, it's the structure itself: a building incorporating "green" technologies and design elements, making it energy efficient, comfortable, and healthy. An ideal green building is simultaneously responsive to its occupants and to the environment; it is aware of its inside and its outside, and how they relate and connect.â€
A good definition comes from the California government site Green Building Basics:
â€A green building, also known as a sustainable building, is a structure that is designed, built, renovated, operated, or reused in an ecological and resource-efficient manner. Green buildings are designed to meet certain objectives such as protecting occupant health; improving employee productivity; using energy, water, and other resources more efficiently; and reducing the overall impact to the environment.â€
The National Association of Homebuilders released The NAHB Green Home Building Guidelines, and it’s full of relevant information.
A Sourcebook for Green and Sustainable Building is an excellent source of information from the Austin Green Building Program and has been active since 1994.
I hope the above links will provide something useful.
It seems to me that one parameter should be the amount of emergy used per capita to build and maintain the building. I recall seeing Dennis Weaver's "Earthship" video and nodding my head until the announcement is made that this guy advocating the 3 Rs of "Reduce, Re-use, and Re-cycle" was building a 6,000 sf house for two people.I just looked at Weaver's website. The house is for sale for $3.75 million and the size is listed as 10,000 sf. with a 3-car heated garage.Maybe it's my eyes that are green...
Yea, personally, i think its ridiculous to label any home over 2,000 sq. ft. as "green".
It seems mostly a trendy label, intended to make affluent people feel less guilty (and for builders to extract more $$ from them, nothing wrong with that).
I always think of that Huffington lady, lecturing common folk on the wasteful evils of driving pickups and SUVs while she sits in her 20,000 sq. ft. mansion.
Another ironic twist is that many of the people interested in living in "green" homes have a nice piece of property, way the helll and gone out in the boonies and are only too happy to pay "artisans" to travel great distances to build their dream place. Of course that contributes to the ammount of fuel, exhaust, needs for better roads etc.
That's one of the things I struggle with the most - trying to seperate what's "green" from my notions of what's "natural". Many times those two concepts seem to be in conflict with each other, and that confuses me.
Very complex subject. Whoever said "there's no such thing as 'greenest'..." is right. There would always be a little farther a person could go in that direction.
We are using and promting the NAHB green Building guidelines. I like that you can type your building systems into their excell scoring tool and see before you start if your project will be "Green Certified" Also they have a system for state by state adjustment of the point scoring system with national review so you can have different scoring priorities for NC and NM. Plus it's supported by the 232,000 member businesses of the NAHB.
Greetings ShelterNerd: Thank you for your response. Great handle. Uh, who’s McHandle2?>>We are using and promting the NAHB green Building guidelines. I like that you can type your building systems into their excell scoring tool and see before you start if your project will be "Green Certified"<<I haven’t used the scoring tool, but I’m happy to hear that you are having success with it. It’s certainly constructive to have the appropriate guidelines and checklists available prior to starting a project. It’s a commendable achievement to be a successful practitioner, and promoter, of the green building movement. Well done!>>Also they have a system for state by state adjustment of the point scoring system with national review so you can have different scoring priorities for NC and NM.<<That is indeed a very nice feature. Big differences between NC and NM. Is it actually broken down state by state? I read that there are support groups in each state.>>Plus it's supported by the 232,000 member businesses of the NAHB.<<That’s probably some of the best news going for green building right now. Once the NAHB got on board, green building took a giant leap to credibility, although the LEEDS program has been quite successful for numerous builders. The Austin Green Building Program pretty much stood alone for a long time. The city of Santa Monica was another pioneer. Two great cities, but the NAHB is nationwide. How long have you been using the NAHB program and where are you located? What type of projects are you involved with? Was it hard to get started? I’d like to get involved with some good people and utilize that program. I’m currently in Ogden, Utah, which isn’t exactly a bastion of green building. But, there are some smart growth advocates.I’ve become more and more interested with natural building and have been traveling out of town (way out of town) to observe and participate. Unfortunately, the pay is fleeting and/or minimal. Fortunately, the people involved are usually quite enthusiastic and interesting to be around. The sustainable concept of natural building intrigues me.
Been a super on two commercial "Green " buildings, far as I can tell it is "Green" if the owner/investors can scam some tax $ savings and credits out of the govt.
All these cynical comments on this thread are a sign of people who are totally lazy about educating themselves about the issue and just want to spout off with a pile of negativity, probably not a very effective way to deal with global warming.
Hello there ShelterNerd, where do you build? Oh God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son"
Abe says, "Man, you must be puttin' me on"
God say, "No." Abe say, "What?"
God say, "You can do what you want Abe, but
The next time you see me comin' you better run"
Well Abe says, "Where do you want this killin' done?"
God says, "Out on Highway 61."
I built my first solar home (passive) back in 1976 or 77, how about you ?
I view the latest "Green " effort much like what happened with the Solar and Energy Efficient before it. The great ideas and concepts and real work gets co-opted for Tax breaks, McMansions, Goverment Credits and Real Estate ads.
Sorry if you don't like the observation , but it is the result of just about 30 yrs. of being involved and watching , reading and building.
Actually I started building passive solar homes the same year '77 down here in Chapel Hill, NC so we're both grandfathers here. I turned 50 this year and I've been building solar my whole life. The last two houses we built scored more than 60% better than code on the Energy Star analysis, at $155 per sf. One of the things we in the Green Building Initiative have to deal with constantly is solar builders who think that if your aren't carbon neutral or if you build a home larger than 700 sf per occupant then there is no point in calling what you do green. But just writing off all the entry level builders who are trying and succeeding at providing an Energy Star and GBI certified product for the working man isn't doing the global warming problem any good. Neither is writing off the tax credit McMansion Builders, though I share your feeling about tax farming there. The fact is that a 2.5 million dollar GBI certified home is much better for the environment and more durable and cheaper to operate than a 2.5 million dollar non-GBI home. So it is true, I don't like the observation, but it's because as good as the homes you and I build may be, guys like us generally only build three or four homes a year and the environmental crises we are in is much bigger than that. We can leverage our knowledge base developed over the last thirty years only if we can productively share it with the greed head builders who are throwing up 350 homes per year. These are the kinds of guys I volunteer my time to educate through the Green Building Initative. I'm even working, for free, with Newland Communities after five years of fighting to prevent them from building 5,000 new homes in our back yard. But if they have the bucks to buy county commissioners and change the laws in our NC county from their corporate offices in San Diego we can still lobby to get them to provide a Green Certified product that will become a defacto standard for this community. I don't like what they are doing but as individual human beings some, not all, of them are decent folks and they can see a business advantage to building Green Certified homes. Look at the way things become "standard" in your area. Is recirculating hot water a standard feature in your town yet? it is here. Charlotte NC now has electrical outlets cut into the baseboard as a fast rising "standard feature" thanks to Simonini Builders. Those used to be expensive upgrades. Why shouldn't GBI and Energy Star certification become minimum standards for a "quality home" in your marketplace? The GBI is a very comprehensive standard, much more meaningful in the big picture than even Energy Star (and I'm an Energy Star Builder.) And it is way, way more user friendly and economical than LEEDS or any of those green building certification programs that aim to differentiate their builders as the "top ten percent of builders in America." The GBI is a green building program for builders who belive that God may have given man dominion over the planet but that did not give us the right to pillage and destroy it for short term gain. It's about doing the right thing, building homes that husband the planets resources and still making a living doing it. We have taken builders building $155,000 dollar homes and brought them up to energy star and GBI certification standards for $6,000 per home and we've taken guys building 2 million plus McMansions and gotten them to make changes to get to GBI and Energy Star for $5,000 per home. It's not about solar panels and tax breaks, it's just taking a long hard look at where you place your priorities and committing to putting sustainability on that list. We are not purists, but we're making more of a positive impact than the purists are so I sleep just fine at night. and it's good for business, I handed out $43,000 in profit sharing to my crew this year so I guess green building can be profitable. I will now step down off my soap box, thanks for letting me get this off my chest.
>>All these cynical comments on this thread are a sign of people who are totally lazy about educating themselves about the issue and just want to spout off with a pile of negativity, probably not a very effective way to deal with global warming.<<What? Cynical comments and negativity from construction workers? There's a shocker. I remember working with some old timers in the early seventies. Those guys were brutal. My great uncles were plasterers and were pretty mean. I was scared of those guys as a kid.There's a lot of positive people around too. Remember that bell shaped curve thing?Glad you jumped in and revived this thread. Well done!If you really want to read some negativity, read the Al Gore movie thread. It's a hoot. Lot's of pontificating. You can almost feel the rage. Some well thought out and factual information too.
I can E-mail you the scoring tool or you can get it from our local HBA website http://www.hbadoc.com/ Look down to Green Building Council news and you can down load the NC version of our scoring tool. We've been using and refining it for about a year. It is really helpful to know before you start what you need to do to get certified. The green building initiative thing is different from the natural building thing in that the idea is to change the way mainstream builders build homes across america to combat global warming and save energy and water and improve indoor air quality and make more durable buildings. We are working with tract builders building entry level product in the 160,000 range including land and they are getting energy star and GBI certified. We're also working with folks who are building 2.5 million dollar mansions. It's a strange experiance for an old hippie like me but it's the work that needs to be done. More information is available on the national website http://www.thegbi.org. Be wellMichael
Thanks for the scoop. I went to the Utah site and found a lot of builders. Unfortunately, none of them are in my area, but I will contact some of them anyways.I'm extremely aware of the diffence between green building and natural building. One of them finally has some green money available, which is good. Green building is also slowly becoming mainstream. For years people totally ignored green building and looked at me like I was from another planet if I talked about it.I agree that you have to start somewhere, even if it's with the 2.5 mil McMansions. But, it doesn't mean you have to like those monster homes. Remember when a 2,000 sq ft home was a really large home? Working with tract builders sounds like a very positive thing. Glad to hear you're an old hippie making a buck. I feel some of those old hippie tendencies, occasionally. I think that's what's kind of interesting about the natural building. It's a kind of a "back to the land" movement, but with computers and solar panels and stuff.Where are you located?
I'm in NC and I agree with you about the natural building stuff being cool. I also really love set design stuff. My wife and I took our 8 year old to see Eragorn this weekend and left thinking "why can't we build cool houses like that? I'm actually building a hobbit hole for my daughterout of bent rebar and expanded wire lath and surewall. It's alot of fun, looks like straw bale but won't rot. We did a house a few years ago that had a partition wall through the middle of it that was done that way, all curves and leaning out of plumb over the living room, 14 feet high and forty feet long with arched doorways and niches. It had regular square and plumb walls on the outside though. (except a curved wall at the front door) I have friends doing rammed earth and they can't seem to make a profit with it here in NC so I'm stickin' with sticks and paying my bills. But on my own house I'm all about some wierd stuff. Be well
Hey ShelterNerd, would you mind e mailing me the scoring tool? I downloaded it but my cumputer can't read it because I don't have Excell.
I did successfully download the file from the NAHB site you linked to. Thanks. Romania wasn't built in a day.
Here are two calculators. The “HBADOC Green …†is our North Carolina blank calculator. The other “Esposito HBADOC…†is the filled out calculator I just submitted with a house that I’m entering in this years NAHB Green Building Awards so I have modified it to show NC scoring on sheet 2 and National scoring on sheet three for comparison on a national playing field. Our HBA’s Green Building Council (I’m on the exec comm. & education chairman) has voted to modify the scoring to reflect local conditions, dramatically increasing the indoor air quality and water conservation requirements and dropping the global impact section entirely, Which just means you no longer are required to use low-VOC finishes to meet the minimum. (Some of us have been stung badly by LOW VOC floor finishes and we needed to compromise there, but backed it up by adding meat to the indoor air quality section, we’ll re-visit that in a year. During the shake out time we have it as a pass-fail so there is only bronze, no silver or gold until next year or whenever we get our third party auditing setup working well. Basically out auditing is multi-level: our Council has contracted with two local energy star raters to provide GBI certification partially subsidized by NAHB at a cost to the builders of $150 per house. (Energy star rating is about $1,000 per house here) they are in turn under the supervision of TerraChoice in Canada, which is a company that certifies auditing procedures, so if we want to know if “GreenGuard†certification for insulation is an acceptable standard we can call Terra Choice and they will give us a thumbs up or down on weather it’s a valid organization. (It is, I had my doubts)BY the way, getting this thing up and moving in NC has been a really fun project. The folks at our HBA got 15 of the most passionate building science nerds together they could find and we sat around a big table in a conference room every month for a year and a half picking the national scoring tool apart and adjusting points and working out how we were going to get it approved by National bring it to the public. There was practically a fight at one point about whether we were going to allow points for re-circulating hot water, it saves water, but wastes energy, we chose not to give points. I made friends with folks I never would have met otherwise it's been a great thing for all of us. I hope this is helpful. Have a great new years.
Just re-read your post, sorry but the scoring tool is an Excell document and you need to have Excell or some kind of spreadsheet tool to open it, It's loaded with macros and security locks so I doubt you could read it in a works program but that would be the best bet, other than paying Mr Gates for his nifty little program. Personally, I can't imaging running a business without Excell and QuickBooks. About twenty years ago I used 20 column lined paper two pieces stapled side by side. Glad those days are gone.
Just picked up a tutorial for Quickbooks at the most recent JLCLive! but I haven't dug into it yet. Still using paper and pencil. What a knucklehead, huh?
Thanks for the info though. Got your e mail, too. Thanks again. Romania wasn't built in a day.
Not a knucklehead in my opinion. Possibly working harder than you need to though. QB is really great for tracking job costs and finding out what is not working in your estimates as well as keeping track of stuff for the tax guy and the insurance auditor. I like having my finger on the pulse of my company. I like getting things packaged into neat little systems so I can put them on autopilot and focus on the creative stuff. I've gotten it down to 38 hours per week last two years, my goal is to ease on back to 30 hrs per week and putter around the farm more. Maybe get out to see my kid in San Francisco more often.
Hey Michael, I got your email, we must have been dancing around each other for the past 30 years...most of my work is in Orange, Co.I was just invited to build in Bingham Ridge:http://www.silverwood-inc.com/binghamridge/BinghamRidge.htmI'm pricing the house right now, hoping I can get the numbers and banking to work<G>Your links look pretty helpful, I'll have to get up with you. Oh God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son"
Abe says, "Man, you must be puttin' me on"
God say, "No." Abe say, "What?"
God say, "You can do what you want Abe, but
The next time you see me comin' you better run"
Well Abe says, "Where do you want this killin' done?"
God says, "Out on Highway 61."
I thought Dave Cook had those lots locked down. I like Dave a lot, our kid goes summer camp at his house. Delafield seems a bit odd to me but I think those lots and that concept should work well. Our daughter goes to CIS right down the street from there. We live on Cane Creek over near Saxapahaw. Are you a NAHB member? if so I'd be happy to welcome you to the Green Building Council. We have a meeting this Thursday. The group is getting huge. Introduce yourself someday. The crew eats lunch every Friday at Anna Maria's Pizza in Carrboro. Join us and I buy you a couple slices. Michael
I'm so old and slow, I'm no threat to Dave<G> Bob Hartford is an old friend, and fishing buddy, so he's trying to get me in the back door...plus he figures I'll clean his fish.I'm not a nahb member, and didn't realize they were into anything other than golf and beer, LOL. I'll stop by a meeting sometime.Gotta go grease up my dancin' shoes...happy new year Oh God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son"
Abe says, "Man, you must be puttin' me on"
God say, "No." Abe say, "What?"
God say, "You can do what you want Abe, but
The next time you see me comin' you better run"
Well Abe says, "Where do you want this killin' done?"
God says, "Out on Highway 61."
<<not a nahb member, and didn't realize they were into anything other than golf and beer,>> Actually National has some pretty seriously beneficial programs going on. I've been doing their Builder 20 program for the last ten years and it has really helped my company.Link below should connect you to the part of my website devoted to this program and onwards to NAHB's B-20 site.Michaelhttp://www.chandlerdesignbuild.com/beta/index.php?id=builderManagement&t=Builder%20Management%20Continuing%20Education
I hope you realize, I was only kidding about the beer and golf<G>As soon as I get free (right), I'll try to get into nahb a little more, looks like a great resource, and they're promoting a lot of stuff I'm interested in.Also, nice portfolio. Oh God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son"
Abe says, "Man, you must be puttin' me on"
God say, "No." Abe say, "What?"
God say, "You can do what you want Abe, but
The next time you see me comin' you better run"
Well Abe says, "Where do you want this killin' done?"
God says, "Out on Highway 61."
Well you are actually accurate as far as the local HBADOC group especially if you add right wing kneejerk pro-development politicizing to the beer and golf (not that there's anything wrong with beer and golf) but the Research Center and PATH and the 50+ Council and Green Building Iniative are doing very interesting stuff on a national level. Join us for pizza some day. Bring your friend Jim BlodgettMichael
Thanks for the invite, and I'm working on Blodgett<G> Oh God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son"
Abe says, "Man, you must be puttin' me on"
God say, "No." Abe say, "What?"
God say, "You can do what you want Abe, but
The next time you see me comin' you better run"
Well Abe says, "Where do you want this killin' done?"
God says, "Out on Highway 61."
jim-
great book for quickbooks is "Contractors Guide to Quickbooks Pro" by Karen Mitchell, Craig Savage and Jim Erwin. It comes in different additions depending on your year of quickbooks, is setup like a cookbook and easy to follow. If you set it up and use it, it'll be easy to track jobs, invoices, billings and especially easy to do your taxes. sorry for jumping in on the other topic just really think this is a great book. dale
Thanks Dale, I recently bought that book although I haven't made time to dig into it yet.
I AM trying to get at least some part of the paperwork on computer, estimating or financial records. I am still doing both with pencil and paper - it works fine, but I have to believe it's a lot slower than if I converted.
Romania wasn't built in a day.
Free excel viewer at http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=c8378bf4-996c-4569-b547-75edbd03aaf0&displaylang=ENPAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Thanks, Tom. You folks have a nice Xmas?Romania wasn't built in a day.
You're welcome. Reader's all I have too. DW's companies sometimes send things our old computer can't fathom. My problem often is figuring out just what program is necessary. MS seemingly offers readers for everything.
Christmas was nice. Everybody gets together with my 95 yr old mother in Williamsburg, a great place for Christmas. But I didn't see any happy kids out on new bikes, the one thing I always look for.
Hope yours was as enjoyable.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Ichecked out your website. That is a very interesting construction method, Looks like a great house!
Be well
Michael
Thank you, my first effort. It works very well. Never gets cold or hot (currently 33º outside, no supplemental heat inside). A replacement house is started, very similar.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Jim,
Somebody may say this later in the thread, but if not, here you are. Follow the link to download free software that will allow you to not only look at but edit excel documents:
http://download.openoffice.org/index.html
Hope this helps you out.
Thanks, aimless. Need all the help I can get.Romania wasn't built in a day.
>>I'm in NC and I agree with you about the natural building stuff being cool. I also really love set design stuff. My wife and I took our 8 year old to see Eragorn this weekend and left thinking "why can't we build cool houses like that? I'm actually building a hobbit hole for my daughterout of bent rebar and expanded wire lath and surewall. It's alot of fun, looks like straw bale but won't rot.<< It’s interesting to step outside the paradigm, isn‘t it? You can build cool houses if you want to. People are doing it as we type. The hobbit hole sounds great. Will there be a round door too? Your daughter will probably never forget it, nor will her friends. Now if you can just get Gandalf to show up with fireworks.Straw bale structures don’t rot if the correct details and procedures are followed. Does that sound familiar or what? There’s a plethora of information available regarding straw bale dwellings, as I’m sure you are aware. The straw bale folks can be quite militant about their building techniques. I see that Surewall is a synthetic product. I guess there’s no problems with rot, but there’s got to be some mold issues. Lime plasters and natural plasters are very popular and are working out quite nicely if the proper procedures are taken. They both “breathe,“ which is good. Stucco has serious breathing problems. That sounds odd, doesn’t it?.It’s amazing what people are doing with natural materials and good equipment. There’s a revival going on. A new age sort of revival, and it’s great. I think most of the earth’s inhabitants actually live in earthen dwellings of some type or other. Earth is the oldest, worked building material. The Sumerians built homes and temples, in Mesopotamia, with sun-dried mud and burned bricks. That was 5,000 thousand years ago. There are lots of good people utilizing various old techniques, and creating new ones in the process.>>We did a house a few years ago that had a partition wall through the middle of it that was done that way, all curves and leaning out of plumb over the living room, 14 feet high and forty feet long with arched doorways and niches. It had regular square and plumb walls on the outside though. (except a curved wall at the front door)<< Sounds like a very interesting project. Do you have pictures? I’ve seen some cob structures, and worked on one, that are similar to what you described. Cob people are big on niches and curved walls. A curvilinear wall is, apparently, stronger than a straight wall. However, the roof takes a lot longer to build. Building with earth bags is an interesting technique that works well with curvilinear shapes. There are some unbelievable structures being created from earth bags. And I don’t mean bunkers and levees.>>I have friends doing rammed earth and they can't seem to make a profit with it here in NC so I'm stickin' with sticks and paying my bills. But on my own house I'm all about some wierd stuff.<< I started with sticks and sticks are good. There are some alternatives to sticks that are also good. I’ve checked out some rammed earth homes. They’re esthetically pleasing and durable, but very labor intensive and expensive. Parts of the Great Wall of China are constructed of rammed earth. It’s been around a long time. Earth is always, almost, right on site. That’s good.Are you familiar with PISE (Pneumatically Impacted Stabilized Earth?) David Easton developed the method in the ‘90s as an alternative to rammed earth. He lives in Napa, CA. Soil materials are mixed with cement, water is added, and the mixture is pneumatically sprayed against structural rebar and a plywood form. It’s similar to gunite. The walls are about 18†thick when completed. All the pluses of rammed earth, produced much quicker. PISE is a lot more cost effective than rammed earth. I like it a lot and almost jumped in, in Scottsdale, AZ.Do you know anything about Earthships? A great concept developed by Michael Reynolds, an architect. They’re energy efficient, self-contained and built from natural materials and junk (tires and cans.) There’s a greenhouse inside, for growing flowers and vegetables, and a dome on top. There’s actually a subdivision of Earthships outside of Taos, NM. It’s quite a sight/site. Extremely unique and functional. Very interesting.I worked on some bamboo structures when I lived on Maui. Bamboo is an excellent, lightweight building material. It‘s very strong, and quite sustainable. There are numerous architects, engineers, builders and civilians getting involved with bamboo. Homes in Columbia and Costa Rica, built with bamboo framing, have withstood violent earthquakes and the subsequent mudslides. Large, commercial bamboo structures also maintained their integrity. I’ve got some excellent links if you’re interested.Well, that’s enough for now. It’s been awhile since I investigated some of this stuff and writing about it has stirred up a number of memories and mental pictures. I wonder if I’ve stirred up any controversy in the process? Probably. Let me know if you’re interested in any of the above, and I’ll provide some good links. I’ve got some photos too. Some of the photos look like they were taken on bizarro world. So if you want weird, I can probably help you out. One structure I visited is actually called…...wait for it…...The Womb. I‘m not kidding. I’ve got pictures.peace out
I'd sure like to see some photos, Smokey1.
I think a lot of the "alternative" building methods are climate specific, but I am really interested in seeing what folks are doing/have done. Always fascinating to think "why not?" - I really admire people who implement their ideas.
Me, I'm pretty conservative. That doesn't mean I can't dream though, and I love a good story. Romania wasn't built in a day.
Here are some photo's of that 40' x 14' curved wall, non-load bearing obviously, just a space divider with minimal electrical and speaker wiring and a cozyheat fireplace insert with 8" B-vent convection heat ducts into the music room (7' tall by 20' wide CD collection) and tower bedroom. The whole thing is hollow, just an armature of #3 rebar with galvanized expanded wire mesh followed by one coat of Fiber reinforced surface bonding concrete and two coats of type S stucco topped with two coats of elastomeric paint. Floor tile by homeowner, three years after completion and still not tiled... Michael
Very cool looking. Soft. Organic. I like it a lot. I'd like to see more of that type stuff, if you have it.
Would you get thermal mass heat storage out of a wall like that? Romania wasn't built in a day.
Very cool looking. Soft. Organic. I like it a lot. I'd like to see more of that type stuff, if you have it.Hey Jim, you're just going to have to come here, and see this stuff in person<G>Happy New Year to you and Kathy! Oh God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son"
Abe says, "Man, you must be puttin' me on"
God say, "No." Abe say, "What?"
God say, "You can do what you want Abe, but
The next time you see me comin' you better run"
Well Abe says, "Where do you want this killin' done?"
God says, "Out on Highway 61."
Well I'd be there if ever there was a Fest there! Maybe we could work in some hoops while we're there (um...you folks DO play basketball down there, don't you?)
Happy Hollydaze back atcha man.Romania wasn't built in a day.
>>I'd sure like to see some photos, Smokey1.<< Well hello there jimblodgett. Good to hear from you. I’ve never posted photos on break time before. I’m on dial up, so I need to be careful about file size. Be specific about what you’re interested in and I‘ll do my best. If I know of a site with better pics, I’ll post the site. If you’ve got a tip on posting photos, please help me out.>>I think a lot of the "alternative" building methods are climate specific, but I am really interested in seeing what folks are doing/have done. Always fascinating to think "why not?" - I really admire people who implement their ideas.<< Which “alternative†methods are you talking about? I was surprised that straw bale homes were popular in the rainy northwest. Numerous cob structures have been built in Western Oregon. The birthplace of “Oregon Cob“ is in Cottage Grove. Passive solar design principles play an important role in alternative building methods. An excellent alternative building mantra is, “form follows function.†Smart alternative builders learn quickly that size matters. I too admire people who implement their ideas, unless of course, the ideas are foolish. There are plenty of stories of foolishness with alternative building methods. Good thing there’s no foolishness in mainstream building. Smart alternative builders learn from other builders’ mistakes. Important strategies to maintain are sustainability and implementing the appropriate technology to complete your objective. I can’t explain the above easily.There’s a ton of classes and workshops available. There are building conferences and energy fairs that are extremely interesting. Solfest is my favorite. It takes place in Hopland, CA at the Solar Living Center and is easily worth a long journey. The Northwest Eco-builders Guild put on the first alternative building conference I ever attended. It was in Port Townsend. I learned a lot about materials and methods. The Guilders were very helpful and fun to talk to. I had a great time. How’s the Guild working out for you? Oregon and Washington are full of alternative building methods. Must be that new age and old hippie combination. Speaking of which, The Oregon Country Fair used to have a special area set aside for alternative techniques. Have you ever been to the Oregon Country Fair? It’s very memorable and if you haven’t had the experience, shame on you. >>Me, I'm pretty conservative. That doesn't mean I can't dream though, and I love a good story.<< Conservative huh. A lot of the new methods are simply a revival of real old, tried and true methods. Dream? I can remember the Walt Disney line real well, “A dream is a wish your heart makes.†Sorry, I went to Disneyland shortly after it opened. They were still building Adventureland. Now that was some cool alternative building.Solar Living Center - http://www.solarliving.org/display.asp?catid=50&pageid=35
Tips on posting photos? Me?
Well, let's see. You know what Irfanview is? It's a free download to resize and otherwise manipulate photos. I downloaded that.
Then I have photos on my harddrive, right? I open Irfanview, then use it to open the photo I want to post. I resize the photo to under 100kb (I THINK it's "kb"s). I then resave the resized photo.
Then I write some drivel that no one in their right mind would want to read (except maybe another insomniac). But before I click "post" I click "attach files" and a window comes up. I then open the resized photo in the file to be uploaded box. Follow the prompts, like "open" and "done", then click "post" and the darned thing usually works.
Here, I'll try it.Romania wasn't built in a day.
The information you provided is exactly what I needed. Thanks for the scoop. I guess it’s time to take a test drive with some pics.The pics are of a yurta, on Maui, that I lived in for about a month. There’s more than a few yurtas in Hawaii, usually tucked away in remote places. It rained almost every day and getting down the path was a real chore, especially at night. The plants were the hand rail. Did you check out that Solar Living Center link or what? It’s an amazing place, very green. It used to be a dump that was full of junk cars. They left a few cars there as part of the design. You can see the cars from Hwy. 101 as you drive by. It’s a surreal experience, just as the designers intended.What’s happening with the Eco-builders Guild? Are you going to meetings? Are you learning anything you like? Those folks are good people.Okay then. Thanks again. I’ll be getting my photos organized, kind of, and scanned. Oh yeah, I think I’m taller than that other Smokey, but probably not as popular. See you in the funnies.
Yeah, those posted nicely.
The Nothwest Eco Builder's Guild? We are just trying to get the South Sound Chapter up and running again. It's been pretty quiet for the past couple years. But there seems to be a pretty committed group meeting regularly now. I have high hopes for it. "Learning a lot?" Yeah, I've been studying quite a bit, trying to sort out what's what - how it fits into my ideas about responsible living/building. There's a lot to think about, that's certain.
Haven't scoped out the Solar Living link yet, but I intend to. Just have too many irons in the fire right now. I was just holding on by my fingernails when three, count 'em three, trees came down on my shop just before Xmas. That and the 5 days without power from the same storm threw a pretty serious kink in my schedule.
But, like the saying goes, "it's all good". There are a LOT of people with FAR bigger problems than that kind of stuff.
Thanks for the photos. Never cared much for humid climates or living in tents (something my Uncle cured me of in my youth) but those sure are some interesting looking photos. Off to bed, a good book and a better woman.
Romania wasn't built in a day.
I’m surprised that your chapter has been quiet. The guys I met were hyper. I may have a good connection for you in your area. I’ll have to consult my notes….just as soon as I find them. It’s been almost ten years since I cruised up into the Olympic Peninsula. It was a very nice journey. Sorry to hear about the damage to your shop. That must have been one bleak Christmas at your home. No power for five days? That would definitely put a serious kink in any schedule. Good luck brother. Wishing you an extra prosperous new year. Send me a photo or two of your shop and the trees, if you have any. I’ve got a weird mental picture of some sort of a “man trap.†I’ve seen “man traps†before. Most of the time it’s been on large projects. I’ve seen them sprung too. Maybe one day I’ll try a “man trap†thread. I saw my first yurta (or yurt) at that Eco Builder’s conference in Port Townsend. It didn’t look like a tent to me. You admitted that you were conservative. Take a moment and check out the links below. It’s an opportunity to “think outside the box.“ Then tell me if you still think they’re tents.Exploded view of a yurt: http://www.yurts.com/what/view/
Photo gallery: http://www.yurts.com/gallery/photo-gallery.aspx?image=%2fimages%2fphoto-gallery%2flarge%2f24_gallery_lrg.jpg
Well, they're NICE tents. How's that?Romania wasn't built in a day.
Weak.
Jim, Just found this, it might helpful reading excel files?http://docs.google.com/ "But to be honest some folks here have been pushing the envelope quite a bit with their unnecessary use if swear words. They just put a character in to replace a letter. But everyone knows what they're saying." Sancho
Thanks 'Snort. My son-in-law to be just hooked up a router last night for me so I am going to try to get some business stuff started on a laptop I bought from our daughter. I can really see how a spreadsheet template could be great for estimating once I get it set up.
What's up with the spec building business? Anything going yet?Romania wasn't built in a day.
I just picked out about 10 grand in bath fixture<G>Still getting numbers...what's up with subs, anyway? LOLI'm hoping to get a finished proposal ready in a couple of weeks.The spreadsheets are amazingly helpful, to me...I've putzed around with them for a couple of years, and became painfully slow with them. I finally signed up for a online class from a local community college. Class started Wednesday...my knowledge base has expanded 100%, ha.Hey, have you been sending your wet down here? "But to be honest some folks here have been pushing the envelope quite a bit with their unnecessary use if swear words. They just put a character in to replace a letter. But everyone knows what they're saying." Sancho
"Hey, have you been sending your wet down here?"
Not yet, but it's an idea. Freakin' record rainfall in November (now THAT'S saying something - "record rainfall" - here in the Northwet), December was about as bad but with (again) record windstorms and sub freezing temperatures for several days at a time - VERY unusual weather for us.
Amazingly though, some folks are STILL saying we are going to have an El Nino winter which for us means warm and dry. We'll see. I sure hope it happens soon. We could use a break.
Spreadsheets? Yup, just started in yesterday trying to get started in earnest transferring a current estimate onto one - got bored and started reading "Contractor's Guide to Quickbooks" then set that down to go go-kart racing with the kids and Kathy. What a blast that was!Romania wasn't built in a day.
Jim, sorry to hear about your shop. Are you still operational? Do you need anything?Hey, they weren't alders, were they?;-) Oh God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son"
Abe says, "Man, you must be puttin' me on"
God say, "No." Abe say, "What?"
God say, "You can do what you want Abe, but
The next time you see me comin' you better run"
Well Abe says, "Where do you want this killin' done?"
God says, "Out on Highway 61."
Oh yeah, we're back in bidness and badder than ever.
Alder? hahahahahahahahahaha Don't have an alder on the entire place. In fact, I can't say where there ARE any alder even close to us. That last shipment I sent came out of a firewood pile I bought from a logger a few years ago. Sure got a laugh when I read that, though. Thanks for that.
Do I need anything? "faster horses, older whiskey, younger women...more money".Romania wasn't built in a day.
I like the direction this is heading, here are a couple of images (if I can figure out how to post them) of the hobbit hole I'm making for my 8 year old. The door and window are round and there is a chimney for a future fireplace, The floor will probably be brick pavers and oriental rugs. I just started stucco, have seven little girls scheduled for a birthday next Saturday so I guess I'll be stringing lights this week. Good thing it's still warm here in NC.I'll dig up some images of the big curved wall project later this evening.Have a great year y'all
ShelterNerdMy dial-up connection can’t handle those hobbit hole photos. Sure sounds like it’s going to be nice. The party will undoubtedly be a major hit. Nice going. Were you able to schedule Gandalf for the fireworks?Here’s a link to a cob hobbit house - http://www.pinemanor.com/earthbuilding/hobbitland.html I was able to load up, from the subsequent post, your curved wall project. That’s a nice series of photos. Very impressive workmanship. Sounds like it’s real durable too. Good thing the home owner is right on top of that floor tile.
Here they are dramatically compressed for dial-up. Hope to finish up the first coat of surface bonding concrete this evening. I'll shoot a couple of photo's at the birthday party and we'll see how done it gets. I like that hobbit house you sent me a link for. I'm definately planning on a green room for my little structure, It's sitting on top of a granite outcropping over a river so if I work it right it should look like and extention of the clif only with a round door and a window in it. Once I finish this one I have another bluff just down the creek that would be ideal for a two room hobbit hole running up the face of the cliff like a split level with a living cave and a sleeping cave. A place for my 23 year old to stay when she visits from San Francisco.
That was much better. Thanks. That hobbit hole looks like it's going to be a good one. Sure sounds like a nice location. The penthouse suite, in planning, sounds like a winner.
Jim:
In the first thread in this folder, I mentioned that I thought about half the topics would be related to this subject- defining "Green Building".
To my mind, it's a fuzzy, qualitative goal which can be pursued using many methods. I don't think that makes it bad, but I do like to quantify things, in order to be more objective.
Building green is building for lower energy/resource use over the lifespan of the building. I think that sums it up- some people would emphasize health for occupants more than I do- it's important, but I think that should have it's own designation. But how do you accomplish that, and how green is green? Some people build green by using materials that are sustainable and less energy/resource intensive, some people build green by designing to last much longer, and some people build houses that will use less energy/year. Most green builders think about all of these things, of course.
I wonder if there is a value to setting the bar for greenness? I guess that's what Energystar and LEED programs do, I don't know much about them. I think it's fair to ask that a "green" building have an expected lifespan of at least 100 years, use about half as much energy to heat and cool as an average building used for the same purpose, and require no more resource extraction to build than the average. I'm tossing out a goal not because I think I've got a lock on what it should be, but because I'd like to hear what other people think it should be.
zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
Quality building is probably the best "green building".
I laugh when someone builds a technically terrible "green" house that will be a shack in 40 years and be torn down in 50. What did that save?
I've heard ICFs are green because no trees are cut down, but at least the trees would grow back, which can't be said for the gravel pit the house came from or the petroleum the foam blocks were concocted from.
I worked on a house that had all the latest solar giz-wizzies. For $50k in equipment the owner figured he would save $20k in electric bills over the life of the equipment. How is it green to spend $1 to save fitty cents?
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Idaho Don,
How is it green to spend a buck to save two quarters?
simple.. NO coal was burned to create that power no oil was burned no global warming occured as a by product of that energy creation.
PLUS!
What costs a dollar today will cost more in the future.. Energy costs are not going to go down. and there is the time value of money arguement..
Money spent now during your peak earning years creating a source for energy that won't be need to be paid for in the future when you are retired and have less income simply won't hurt as much..
MY dad Had a 2 3/4% mortage on his house, he got it from the GI bill after WW2 As interest rates appraoched 18% and more the value of that mortage was tremendous..
and there is the time value of money arguement
I'm completly in favor of factoring in long-term payback for improvements including such things as solar, extra insulation, reduced maintenance, reduced dependance on utilities, etc. I'd go so far as to say it's reasonable to factor in a benefit/cost to society for a particular product.
As an example it's hard for me to recommend asphalt shingles since they have to be replaced so often over the life of the structure and they take up so much landfill space.
However, with my solar power aquaintance he admits that what he has done won't produce a financial payback for as long as he's alive. It's paying for something not cost/benefit building related, but a feel good hobby. There's nothing wrong with feel-good stuff, but it can't be sold as a good deal.
I'm surprised that lumber suppliers haven't been promoting the greenness of their studs since even 2x6 studs appear to be cut from 6" diameter plantation trees! Aren't trees a renewable resource?
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Interestingly enough, though, often the "payoff" calculations don't take into account reasonable estimates of energy price increases, etc, that often can nearly offset interest paid on the money.
Seven blunders of the world that lead to violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics without principle. --Mahatma Gandhi
Why does something have to be financially beneficial to the homeowner in THEIR lifetime? That house should outlast the life of the original owner, shouldn't it? So whatever they pass on, or sell, if it's built to higher standards will continue to be a good investment long after they are gone.
I think part of the problem is we all tend to think in terms of our own lives and make spending decisions based on that. But the debt we are leaving our children, and their children, will come due. For example vinyl products are only cheap because WE aren't going to have to pay for cleaning up the mess 200 years from now.
What difference does it make? We mortgaged our grandchildren's futures years ago.
Seven blunders of the world that lead to violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics without principle. --Mahatma Gandhi
What do you mean?
National debt. Global warming. Nuclear proliferation. Etc.By some accounts, the national debt will exceed the net worth of the country in another 30-40 years or so. That's essentially the definition of bankruptcy.
Seven blunders of the world that lead to violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics without principle. --Mahatma Gandhi
Well yeah, absolutely, those are serious burdens we're laying on our descendents, Dan. But holy smokes, man, it ain't over yet. We still have time to do what we can to get things turned around on all those issues. We just have to decide it's important enough to us.
DON'T GIVE UP THE SHIP!
What did John Belushi say in Animal House? "Over? It's not over until we say it's over!"
Yeah, I was being a little sarcastic/pessimistic. Certainly every little bit helps. But we need a lot more than the occasional "green" building to turn things around.
Seven blunders of the world that lead to violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics without principle. --Mahatma Gandhi
Green Building as a term is one of my pet peeves. It is used to "green wash" countless products that offer little to the sustainability of our projects.
LEEDS offers the best measure that I have seen so far of the overall sustainability of a building project. LEEDS takes into account the number of sleeping areas compared to the square footage of the building. It recognizes the importance of right-sizing our buildings.
We did a much better job of this in the 50s than we have since. We need to move towards the efficiency of space-use that is employed by the Japanese before it becomes forced upon us; because the buildings we build today are going to be our burden in a future of limited energy resources.
My home has been rated at 5 stars by the Austin Green Building Program. It was one of the highest ever rated. If reasonably maintained, it will last hundreds of years. It's energy consumption "per square foot" is ~30% of the average new home. Of the 6400 houses that have been rated by the program, only 21 have earned 5 stars. Here's the rub. The home is 3900 sq ft and lies 31 miles from city center. While it is energy efficient, it also contributes to urban sprawl and promotes a long commute. That is the shame that balances my pride at building a home that is at the peak when it comes to durability, energy efficiency, and indoor air quality.
There are several homes that have been rated 5 stars by Austin's GBP that are large and use 2 or 3 times the national average for energy consumption. There are homes that use tons of glass and even have swimming pools. I find it laughable that any home with a swimming pool could be labelled "green". A pool pump will use almost as much electricity each month as my 3900 sq ft house.
My point is, that "green" can only be used as a relative term. A home cannot be green but it can be greener. It certainly can't be greenest. I would prefer we lose the term all together and focus on the real issues individually. Those would be durability, energy efficiency, indoor air quality, sustainability, and continuing value to the larger community. Those are the issues that I think cover the broader issue that people try to address when they talk of "greeness".
The acid test is this: how long can the planet sustain the consumption of it's natural resources at the rate caused by the project in question? Indefinitely, would be the standard needed to insure that we don't cheat the generations that follow us. Can we really feel good about throwing extra fiberglass insulation in our 3000 foot retirement home for two people?
We must be careful not to practice "Green Building Masturbation". That's an act that makes us feel good but has no substantive outcome.
Why does something have to be financially beneficial to the homeowner in THEIR lifetime?
It sure is fun building something that will outlive a few generations and could exist indefinitely with reasonable care.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Yeah, THAT would certainly be a step in the right direction. Why is it our industry has become so short sighted? People see a house as a tempoary investment, just better than paying rent.
I wonder what we can do to change people's outlook on that?
Jim Blodgett
I think this magazine is a great example of that..
Based on articles written in this magazine I built my home to outlive it's time to create (based on the estimated 270 years it took to grow some of the Oaks that went into it's construction)..
Knowledge is power! We can be leaders, not sheep! We are informed knowledgable and creators of homes.. use that to sell green rather than greater profits for you self.
OR take the best of both worlds,, by being a leader you will help create a class of people who understand the need for thiinking long term.. as a leader your skills will be in demand..
Example?
Look at Ted Benson and the timberframe movement..
His homes command an absolute premium because he was the leader!
Frenchy,
I would not define your home as green - it is huge. Currently the plan is to have several generations living together, but that is a short term plan, at best good for a couple of decades. Right now you are a few people living in an enormous space, so you can't argue realistically that you are currently green. Now suppose your daughters end up with jobs that take them away from the homestead? What if your grandkids end up with jobs that take them elsewhere? The home will be sold. Since you live in a high-rent district it won't be subdivided as a multi-family home, so it will be sold to a single family with a couple of kids. And all that gi-normous space you have will then be used by 4 or 5 people total, as it is now.
aimless,
There are several reasons that is unlikely to happen, some are personal not to be discussed, and some are structural, in that there are covenants which cover that..
While your forecast might occur, given the steps taken to prevent it from happening, it is extremely unlikely.
Hey Jim, a few weeks ago, a group of local builders, designers, archtects,home-owners, real estate agents, brokers and developers put on a "Green Building" Parade of Homes. It was interesting, to say the least.Some had the idea that simply putting a lot of glass on the south side meant green...others has all the latest thermophotogeotastic gizmos. There was a $75,000 house built from "entirely" recycled materials, of course it was also 700sq'.I did the trim on one, a SIPs on a slab...that cost over a million simoleons...place looks like a drive-in vet clinic.There was a "green" subdivision that can't keep up with the demand...nothing under 500KExcept for the recycled house, it seemed, to me, the underlying current of green is the green of money...not that there's anything wrong with that<G>$6,000 for a solar hot water system$30,000 for a closed loop vertical geothermal system w/heat recovery.$30,000 for an OutBack photovoltaic system with backup batteries.I'm not really being cynical, I actually think all of this stuff is going to have a healthy impact in the chain of events that will lead us to saving energy and conserving resources (I don't think that's redundant,is it?).Seems like, other than using it for a marketing ploy, it means responsible building...I think most of the population of the Breaktime Nation have been practicing this stuff for years, maybe without even knowing it...personally, I find all this stuff pretty exciting,and want to get into it up to my neck<G>Hey, are you floating out there? "I am the master of low expectations." Georgie Boy, aboard Air Force One, June 4, 2003
I think you're argument that the building should outlast the time it takes to replenish the resources consumed is excessive, frenchy. But I like the principal of what you say.
And I agree whole heartedly that we should be considering the life of the building, not the life of the original owner, or mortgage. That is short sighted indeed.
I really like what zak said earlier about using "an average amount of materials to produce a higher quality, more energy efficient building..." or something like that. I have to go back and reread that, it really hit home the first time I read it.
Jim,
As I understand it the problem with solar is that the collectors wear out and need to be replaced every 20 years. They never pay for themselves. So it really is a feel-good or necessity based decision.
Aimless,
You wrote, "As I understand it the problem with solar is that the collectors wear out and need to be replaced every 20 years. They never pay for themselves." I'm not sure whether you're talking about solar thermal collectors or PV modules. But I bought my first PV module in 1980, and it's still producing the same amount of electricity as the day it was installed. Calculating whether a PV module "pays for itself" depends on several factors. Certainly, my 26-year-old PV module has produced much more electricity than the amount of electricity required to manufacture it. Moreover, the electricity it has produced has not resulted in the release of any greenhouse gases.
I imagine that there must be someone reading this thread who has a solar thermal collector that is more than 20 years old, and still working. Anybody?
I think the solar energy movement took a huge hit in the 80s when the federal government rescinded tax credits for solar companies. Many of those companies went out of business because of that and therefore there weren't enough people with expertise to maintain the existing equipment, or develop the next generation.
Bad black eye which the solar community is just now reviving from. That's why they are the loudest opponents of the cries for government subsidies in the form of tax benefits today. They want the current movement to be more solid on it's own feet this time around, less dependent on outside monies, like subsidies.
But this is just stuff I've read over the past couple years. I'm sure there are others here who know from first hand experience.
IdahoDon,
To be green a building must outlive the time it takes to replace the material used in it's construction. That is one of the most fundamental requirements of being Green, that is sustainability..
You can use thousand year old trees to build a outhouse if the life of the outhouse is at least a thousand years..
How does this impact your friends energy creating non payback home?
Well it's sorta the same thing.. assuming that he is using solar, wind, maybe even mini hydro it may not pay back in his life time however in the life time of the building it might.
I say might because it's near impossible to factor in such things as future efficency's
Who knows what magic stuff will be created in the future? There may be a new digital drier that electronically removes water from washed clothes at the energy cost of 4 milliamps.. Or a new heater that electronically splits atoms to create heat, whatever. Just as we couldn't have forecast the inventions of the twentith century we have no idea of the creations of the 21 century..
If you go out east there are plenty of dams that in the 18th and 19th century were used to grind mill and saw.. today those same dams may be usd to generate electricity..
"To be green a building must outlive the time it takes to replace the material used in it's construction. "
So if you use rock then your house needs to last 260 million years?
And what about the butane the carp uses in his nailer?
Seven blunders of the world that lead to violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics without principle. --Mahatma Gandhi
:)
aimless
or be able to be recycled to be used again for the next 260 million years.
For $50k in equipment the owner figured he would save $20k in electric bills over the life of the equipment. How is it green to spend $1 to save fitty cents?
For one thing, the price of energy can (drastically) change that equation. Another consideration, the carbon dioxide NOT emitted, by using solar energy. Can we put a price tag on that? (There's always hope that the equipment might last longer than anticipated.)
Green building is political! Like foods in restaurants. Some countries and I forget which made it illegal for restaurants to use trans fats in their food...and the hear attack rate has dropped considerably so I remember reading
I think KFC is doing that now ...not using trans fats.
Seems to me the govt is going to have to act big like it did w/ asbestos and recycling to have an impact because too many people are too lazy to even define it...never mind do it.
Always boils down to govt unfortunatly.
Creation arises, is sustained for awhile, and then things change. That’s the dance.
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
http://www.ramdass.com
I am going to bed. I just got home from a long, intense Monday and I'm cooked. Lots of good thoughts here today though. I hope we can stay engaged in this discussion. I've been doing a lot of reading and talking with others the past few months (even joined the aforementioned Northwest Ecobuilding Guild). Trying to get a clearer picture of what green building is, what it could be.
Thanks to everyone so far.
Came back to say this should be addressed to "ALL". Hey. It's not that I don't love you Andy. You know I do.
Edited 10/31/2006 12:19 am ET by jimblodgett
Any good truss salesman will tell you that using roof trusses is "greener" than stick framing. According the WTCA, trusses use 25% less lumber than stick framing. (The 25% number was pulled from memory, so I can't guarantee that) And the lumber can be harvested from smaller, plantation-grown trees rather than larger, old-growth trees. .Trouble is, there are so many people that claim that their product is "green" that they can't ALL be. I think it's so subjective that you can say that virtually ANY building product is "green".
It is better to live rich than to die rich.
BossHog,
you make a good point but flawed..
OK trusses use less wood.
however the method used to harvest the wood comes under scrutiny.
Was it clear cut. or old growth harvested?
Was it selectively harvested from a well managed forest?
I'm guessing the truss wood is slightly more likely to be plantation wood than the stick-built wood.
Seven blunders of the world that lead to violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics without principle. --Mahatma Gandhi
"Quality building is probably the best "green building". "
I've actually given this a great deal of thought over the years and I don't think I can define it any better than Idaho Don..
Friend of a friend just returned from Germany where the family patron was reslating the roof for the first time in 250 yrs.
My first thought when I read your post was that "Green Building" is a marketing tool for new builders who disappear in a couple of years.
I know a few local builders who have been building "Green" for a long time, making informed material choices, trying to choose sustainably harvested wood etc, and mainly just trying to put out a good product that has long term value while trying to stay within budgets and remain competitive. None of them advertise "Green".
But that's the skeptic in me, that makes the B.S. alarm in my head ring when I read "Green Building"
Tom
I don't think there's anything new to "green" building for custom residental structures. Certainly you could always get what you wanted there if you took your time and spent enough money.It's newer in spec building and in large commercial construction, however, where a "theme" is needed to justify the increased expense.
Seven blunders of the world that lead to violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics without principle. --Mahatma Gandhi
I'm going to let my guard DOWN and my skepticism UP on this topic.
It's my opinion that right now, "Green Building" is just a marketing tool for some of us to jack up the cost of building a home.
Maybe our business cards one day will feature, "Green Builder, Lemon Fresh, Active Enzyme, Organic, Sodium-free," and we need to leave room for the little fish symbol.
So when we are talking to a potential client, we can point to all of our virtues listed on the card, making sure we point with the hand that has the copper bracelet and the yellow Livestrong bracelet.
I know, it's too heavy handed. But I feel like this issue is just open season on all of the builder sharks out there to mislead a newer, more conscientious home buyer.
The best builders will continue doing what they do best--building sensible homes with benefits to both short-term and long-term considerations.
"Kinky for Gov. of Texas"
There probably are organizations out there that have "green" standards or guidelines, and may even be some that "certify" "green-ness". If the standards can be examined, and the process of implementing them verified to a reasonable degree, then I think saying it's "green" is valid.But one wouldn't want to just take a builder's word for it -- you know how untrustworthy builders are.
Seven blunders of the world that lead to violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics without principle. --Mahatma Gandhi
There are people I've met who "certify" various degrees of "green". Apparently there are at least 5 levels. At least, I've heard that phrase used by builders to define what level they build green to - "We are level 5 green builders".
So apparently there IS some accepted scale, as well as a network of certifiers.
Can you elaborate on those various degrees of 'green'?
when in doubt add garlic
I'd like to rez, but I still haven't seen written criteria for deciding who builds to what level.
One guy who I see every couple weeks at meetings is a certifier, though. I only know him by name, but I'll ask him next time I get a chance. Last week I asked one of those "level 5 green builders" (their self title) what that was all about and she directed me to a website where I couldn't find the info.
I'm meeting with a designer tomorrow who has been very active in the Northwest Ecobuilding Guild for as long as it's been. Maybe she'll know where I can get some info. I'll try.
There are many local "green" programs, Austin, TX being the most famous and the model for many others. Two of the programs that are emerging on the national level are NAHB's Green Building Guidelines and LEED for Homes.
I believe NAHB has three levels bronze, silver and gold. But they're just guidelines at this point, like a model code book, that a jurisdiction can opt to implement, amend, etc. Check out their guidelines here:
http://www.nahb.org/fileUpload_details.aspx?contentTypeID=7&contentID=1994
Leed-H, which demands third party testing for certification, had four levels: certified, silver, gold, and platinum, which you can check out here:
http://www.nahb.org/fileUpload_details.aspx?contentTypeID=7&contentID=1994
Have fun,
Brian P.