Your Framing Nailer: Likes, dislikes
I’m doing a little ‘salesforce training’ for a pneumatic tool manufacturer. I want to give them a taste of what users think of different brands / models of framing nailers. I figured I’d get some honest answers here.
Myself – I like the Bostich N88 MCN tool – dual use as a 21 degree stick framer and a metal connector nailer with interchangable tips. For coil nailers I like the Makita AN 901 – super light weight (just a little over 7 lbs) and tons of power to drive 3 1/2″ .148 spikes.
I’m not fond of Hitachi 83’s – only take 3 1/4″ nails, depth of drive adjustment – rudimentary and the trigger leaks are below 20 degrees. I do like thier newer ’90 model – weighs more but lots more power and nice controls (trigger, depth of drive).
MG
Replies
I prefer Paslodes. Frame all day long with no airlines to trip over.
mike ... i liked the Bostich 88rh so much , i bought another one.. we have the tips for both of them..
lot's of power, lightweight, easy depth adjust...
what's not to likeMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,Did you leave the grey trigger that came with the guns on them or switch to the black triggers?
we switch all our guns to sequential trip ( grey trigger ?)
there is nothing we do that requires bump firingMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
same here Mike.I hate bump firing.who the hell needs to go that fast as to where you can hurt yourself with that unexpected extra shot that the new "kid" you hired got a bit in the ego mode.
Be well.....I mean "bite me" sorry, couldn't help my self : )
a...The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
Where do ya get those Supco magazines?
I didn't do it....the buck does NOT stop here.
Hitachi 83s here too. No problems with leaky triggers, just their magazines. I personally, have a Paslode powermaster.
I didn't do it....the buck does NOT stop here.
I'm going to try to link you to the page on http://www.mastertoolrepair.com where the Supco magazines are located. Scroll down to the bottom of the screen and you'll see them listed as something like "improved heavy duty magazine" or something like that. I'm not sure if there's a picture on the site or not. I'll take some pictures for you later this afternoon when I go out to the trailer.
http://www.mastertoolrepair.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=64_65&products_id=470
At the top of the link is a search window. Type in MZ-35 and it will show you a crappy picture of the magazine.
Wanna buy another? I bought the N88RH-2MCN on the sales pitch of a Stanley Rep. I had a few hundred metal connectors to nail so I swallowed that BS hook, line and sinker. When I went to buy connector nails, I couldn't find them anywhere, had to ORDER them. By the time I got the nails (3) boxes, I had already aggrivated my nagging elbow hand driving N10s. That was about 15 months ago and I still have parts of all 3boxes of nails. The damn thing jambed so bad that I couldn't unjamb it with a 3lb sledge and another driving pin. They replaced almost everything on the gun at a free service PR thing they do a couple of times a year. Then the damn thing would fire a nail every time a pressureized hose was connected. VERY DANGEROUS. I shot a few more sticks of nails before it quit again. Boy I can't wait till I see those guys again.
Then there's the floor stapler. If that's not enough there's always the the brad nailer that works part time. and if that's not enough there's the N62FNK that is as dependable as the rest of the Bostitch junk I have. I thought about putting all my nailers and staplers up for sale but I'm in too deep. Last week my lead carpenter, a helper and myself showed up at work with 4000 sq ft of hardwood to put down. We hooked the stapler up nailed about 60 sq. ft. and then the dreaded hissssssssssssss. I had no choice but to go buy another or send the guys home for a few days until I could get another brand. I went to my supply house and signed the ticket for $493 plus tax. I'm the biggest fool who ever bought a pnuematic tool I guess. I picked up the old one which had stapled less than 5,000 sq ft of flooring and signed the bill for $35 worth of O ring replacments today.
O well,
k
k.. i feel for ya man... what can i say.. my bostich floor stapler just keeps on chuggin.. my hoodlum contractor buddies keep borrowing it and give me all the left over staples.. it sure has laid a lot of floors..
the 62 FNK.. is the go-to finish gun...
and both our 88RH never misses a beat...wether it's framing or connector nailing
do you think it doesn't like the weather down there ?
seriously... wait for the spring Bostich day at your lumber yard ( same idiots as last time )but remember .. get more flies with sugar than you do with sh*t..
stroke 'em and see if they can fix your misbegotten spawn of the devilMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
>>get more flies with sugar than you do with sh*t..
Best advice I've heard today! Yep, I'm waiting for the spring day. I'll just politly tell them my problems and trust they can help. I've been using these blame B'stiches from about the beginning, so I guess I'll stay on board till I just have to jump ship.
I've tried and went through everything. Oil, filters, seperators, drain tanks during the day, keep hose ends closed when not in use, guns in their tool boxes, stroking, petting, talking nice to them, cussed em like a dog, tapped them with a hammer.................. But I'm a believer. They'll get 'em fixed.
k
Mike, how hard is it to switch between tips on that Bostich 88? What length nails are available for it? Everytime I have a bunch of metal connectors to nail off, I wish I had one.
I use a Bostich coil nailer, N80 I think.
Mike
arctic....i'm mecahnically discombobulated.. so it takes me at least 30 seconds..
in other words, switching noses is pretty easy.. and we keep our guns in one of those framing gun bags...it's got a pocket for the nose.. so we don't even lose it..
Bostich makes 2 lengths of the Teco style nails ( that i know of )...1 1/2" & 2 1/2"Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Do you production frame with impulses? I use mine for pick-up and remodeling work but I find them slow for sheathing.
I don't really like the Bostich that much. We have only had long term success with Hitachi.
We are switching over to coil nailers more and more. I almost bought the Makita based on your review, but the Hitachi has been bulletproof here and we knew we were safe with that.
Salesman who sells Hitachi told us to stay away from the NR90AC. I tested it for JLC and agreed with him. 8ds jammed the magazine every day (different brand nails).
Yeah, that's one of the problems with the Hitachi 90 - jambing 6d and 8d. And it's the reason why the 83 won't handle a full size spike. The space between the rails of the magazine are spaced wider on the 90 so it can handle the larger nails. That causes the smaller diameter nails to ride by one another. The jambs aren't due to a nose malfunction but friction on the rails when the rear strip of nails overrides the forward strip.What don't you like about Bostitch? Have you run them? I do like the newer magazine that Hitachi put on thier coil nailer. The old one was awful and I hated mine. My crew used to smash the canister so they didn't have to use them.Have you had any cold weather trouble with the Hitachi triggers?
Mike,
We have two Bostich guns and have used them since they came out. They are ok. The older one hasn't done well and the last time we were going to get it worked on, we didn't bother. We have enough guns. What I love about the Bostich, is that you can shoot a full 16d (.162") and the SheatherPlus nails. For nailing shear walls, the sheather plus are nice because it's harder to overdrive them. I also love the nosepiece on the Bostich because it makes toenailing a breeze.
The Hitachi NR83As have been great guns for us. We have two stick nailers that are close to 10 years old and going strong. We bought the Hitachi NV83A2 coil nailer about 2 months ago and put a Dead on Tools hanger on it. That gun has been great for everything so far. As guns die, we'll probably replace them with that gun. We've never had a problem with the trigger or the magainze on the NR83s and believe me, we are not easy on tools.
The thing about the Hitachi NR90AC was that it has a "butt" load magazine (as Jasen says :-)) and I don't like them as well as the top load. It was irratating that it always jammed. What I liked was that it didn't jar my wrist so hard when shooting 16ds.
I really like the Max SN890RH because it's smooth, easy to clear jams and sets the nails pefectly on shearwalls without much adjusting.
My pet peeve are guns without belthooks. I will go with a gun that has one (even if it's aftermarket) over a gun I love because it's like having a third hand.
Tim,What do you use a 16d nail for?Joe Carola
same thing we do , joe.. it's an old , bad habit..
any hand nails we use on the job are Hot Dipped Galv... we keep three ammo cans at all times.... 6d, 8d, & 16d...
same thing with finish nails..... no brights allowed on the job...only Hot Dipped Galv..
course with our guns we have a lot more selections..
as to the 16d.... never saw someplace a 12d would do the job that a 16d wouldn't do it better.. and yes , we do use a lot of 12d gun nails...
but we also keep a box of 16d in the trailer..
here's one.... built up beams
another.... staging nails without the duplex head
some toe-nail applications..
i mean... what are you gonna tell me, that a 16d is a waste ?..
BTW, do you use sinkers or commons ?.. i never even heard of a sinker until about the early '80's..
been using 16d HDG since we used to buy them in wooden kegs..
old habits die hardMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,I just asked Tim what he uses 16d's for becasue I've never used anything over a 10d except when I lived in Cape Cod we face nailed and used 2 12d nails but that's the biggest I've ever seen or used.20 years ago when I first started framing we used sinkers for the decking and sheathing, 8d bright commons for Toenailing studs and 10d bright commons for everything else. "i mean... what are you gonna tell me, that a 16d is a waste ?.."Calm down there Mike, If your serious with that question and reading what I wrote above and never once using a 16d nail and never having a problem only using 10d nails for EVERYTHING the answer for me would be YES but knock yourself out and still use them if you want, I still love you and hopefully when I meet you some day I'll show you how to nail a 16d in with one shot...;-)Joe Carola
no, no, no... the question usually gets asked by someone who thinks they are a waste..
since i grew up with 16d nails , i just think of them as our everyday nail
anyways.......your question got me thinking..maybe they don't even require 16d and i should change ?
so i looked it up in the IRC .. looking on table R602.3(1) in the wall construction chapter
here's some of the things that require 16d:
sole plate to joist
double top plates
built -up header with plywood spacer
rafter to plate, toe nail
roof rafters to ridge, valley or hip rafters
some of the other fasteners that table lists are 8d & 10d and some staples, but no 12d... i wonder if some of the other codes are different
hey... on a good day i can knock a 16d HDG common in with 3 hits..or 9 if my eyes blur
my favorite is when we used to go to the builder's clambake and watch the dudes in the nail driving contest..
absolutely , without fail...
at least one or two would miss the nail and get their thumb.....one hit , full force... believe me they were dealing cards with one hand for months
i notice when i go to the trade shows now... they preset the nails for the nail driving contests... musta had something to do with blood being a hazardous material nowadays
anyways... that's my story, and i'm stickin to itMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"built -up header with plywood spacer"Mike,That's something I've never done or seen done here in NJ but I did it in Cape Cod 20 years ago. Sorry for a short measage but I have to go to my In-Laws right now to eat my 2 pounds of Macaroni with my son because we're both starving and cranky.......Italian thing even though my Mother-In-Law is Irish but one hell of a good cook but I wont let her know that...;-)Joe Carola
Mike, back in the day, it was quite common for most every decent framer to drive a 16d cement coated sinker in one swat if they wanted to. Some guys always framed that way, setting and sinking, but most chose a different rythem. I myself could always drive (I used a 20 oz Rocket back then) and set a 16 cc sinker, but rarely did so, but sometimes (rarely) still do today...it depends on the situation. Most of the time though, there isn't any time advantage because the technique requires a bigger, slower stroke compared to the faster tempo created for the set, nail, finish technique.
I've related the story of the guy I knew that claimed he could drive a 1 3/4" roofing nail in one stroke without setting it. He blasted and splattered his fingers into the window sill trying to prove his BS.
Ahhh...the good ole days of handpounding....I do miss the drumming of the house sometimes. Back in those days, there was always someone pounding every minute of every day. If for some reason, we all would be doing something other than pounding, the boss (sometimes me) would demand that someone start nailing because we were losing money! It's hard to hide your speed, and your dedication to the trade, when the boss can hear your100' away without being able to see you. Nailing was definitly one area that separated the men from the boys...no excuses mattered.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
reading this thread took me back to apprentice framing days in the mid 70's in SE Michigan. I worked with a crew where the boss expected one to set, and one to drive; one to set, and one drive. And they would keep track; probably drove me crazy because I was the apprentice. We used 24 oz. Rocket (?) hammers ( I still have it in my workshop). We had a native American show up once with a 36 oz. hatchet/hammer. He destoyed every wall he worked on and finally destroyed his left hand....He didn't stay with us very long. those were the days, fo sure!! We used 16d coated, and we only built headers with plywood spacers.
Big Bob, I started about that time myself. No one forced us to set/drive, but some did some didn't. I personally was faster using a 20oz rocket than any guy I worked with swinging a 24. It's all about rythem and pace and I tried both ways but was better doing it my way.
Bob, where in SE MI did you work. In those days I was working in West Bloomfield and Bloomfield hills.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
so was I! I was putting in condos right next to "Northland". I was painting houses at night in Bloomfield hills. It's been a while, but I carried plenty of floors on that site cuz the lift was never working! Lots of building going on at that time ... BTW grew up in LIvonia....
They wanted us to do that to test the nailers. Sometimes we shoot the 16ds through the ridge into the rafters if it's an lvl ridge.
Find the name of those Hitachi magazines??
I didn't do it....the buck does NOT stop here.
Mike
I have the Hitachi nr88,Hitachi coil nailers,Hitach roofing guns,Hitach trim guns, bostich stick gun,max super framer, and a hitachi for joist hangers.I bought the bostich gun for nailing LVL, to much abuse on the Hitachi, and very frustrating.
I bought the max for flush backnailing, and it"s great for that.The guys are a little hesitant using it after the adjustable cap on top blew off and landed a couple hundred feet from the house.Little on the heavy side.
I can honestly say the Hitachi positive nailer gun hasn't jambed after installing 5000 or so hangers.Its light and compact.
When the guys set up in the morning they are free to choose what weapons they want for the day- and it's Hitachi. Not pretty, no gimmicks, no frills- just something light, easy to use that doesn't jamb.Those are my tool testers.
For my money, I like the Hitachi products,they are workhorses, that hold up well.
Greg in Connecticut
I like your test - line them up and let the crew pick. That's how I used to do tool reviews. I watched which tools (we had one or two of each flavor) were fought over. Says more than an 'evaluation'
I don't do a lot of framing anymore but I have a PC full round head. I like the round heads for the look on exterior trim, board siding and other utility type work where nail heads can show. The depth control allows for very good setting but I don't like the plastic bits that can get trapped under the nail head. It defeats the purpose. The gun does not drive 16's flush all the time in KD framing even if I hold the gun down tight. This is not due to inadequate air pressure. I've had flush driving issues with their roofing gun too, that's a major pain.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
i prefer my paslodes... i don't like buy'n the fuel cells ... besides not running the airlines i hate the noise of a compressor
p
Michael
I have the same. N88RH. I like it...don't love it....just like it.
What I do love is my Paslode although it takes a lot more care and maintenance but its worth the effort rather than dragging hoses around as long as its not a billion feet of framing in which case I use my N88RH.
Be using other people to frame a billion feet of LFig..
a...
The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I'm waiting for DeWalt to take thier battery trim nailer technology into framing nailers - no gas, no cleaning, just keep an extra battery on the charger.
Mike, I worked on a smaller crew here in Maine and we were building about 4 to 5 homes a year (if we were really moving). We used the paslodes, and there would always be at least two "install" guys and one cut guy. I liked the paslodes a lot. I really liked them up high where the hose wouldn't trip you up. Installing roof sheathing with two of us up there, each with our own gun and no hoses works out great. But you are absolutely right, they aren't as fast as the pneumatics. They definitely can work for production framing, but they have to be cleaned regularly.
Dustin
I really like my Paslode Powermaster plus.
I like the fairly cheap buy-in price ... and the performance has never let me down. Nothing fancy .. but reliable. Granted ... I'm not an every day framer ...but when it's pulled out ... it's used hard. BTW .. it's kept in one of those Duluth framing gun cases(bags) .. very nice.
I have worked along side lots of other carps ... and when push comes to shove ... they all seem to reach for my gun when there's a coupla guns laying around.
I bought it because if felt comfortable to me ..
must be comfy for others too. Nice basic gun.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Mike - Right now I've got a bunch of senco guns:
Frame Pro 601 - clipped head
Finish Pro 40 - 15 ga
Finish Pro18 - 18 ga
SLS20 - stapler
Haven't had any problems with any of them. Used to have Bostich guns. The finish guns were garbage and the only thing i liked about the framer was that it could hold three full clips. Unfortunately this made it very unwieldy anywhere but nailing down a deck. Every time I use a Paslode it makes me glad I don't own one.
DCS Inc.
"He who xxxxs nuns will later join the church." -The Clash
Hey boss,
We run the ornery Hitachi NR-83's some old ones and some of the newer ones... they do the brunt of the work. I do make a few modifications to them though... all of them legal. First thing I do is add a rafter hook, and then the second thing I do is get rid of that lousy factory magazine and install an aftermarket Supco magazine. Those two changes make for a gun that costs close to $450, but is worth every penny. Two racks of sixes and no jambs. The weak link on those Hitachi's has always been the track of the magazine either getting pinched or spread.... either way you had jambing problems. The Supco magazines are super durable and have very smooth action.
As you know, it was a pretty nasty winter here in New England. I only had one morning where I had a trigger issue with one of the Hitachis, but it freed up with a blast of WD40. Low maintenance work horses.
I also have a Bostitch framer with the metal connector nose. It's pretty much dedicated to hardware fastening, but occasionally I'll drag it out for nailing up LVLs or if one of the Hitachis should go down for O rings or something. Seems like a real good gun, but like I said, we've pretty much dedicated it to hardware. I also left the grey single-shot trigger on it, which is another reason it doesn't see much production time. Figure it's much safer when working around the metal.
I have to agree with you that the nr83 is a great gun like you said not fancy but durable . I'm ashamed to say how many times I've went a week probably two before without oiling my guns . with little or no problems .the one drawback is the parts are very expensive. and when you get good with one nailing walls they will nail so fast you'ld swear it was a machine gun.-Rob Cutting
I too like the Bostich,
I love the power it has and while it's a bit bulky it seems as light as any other gun I've used. I bought mine before they offered the full headed nail one but I question if I'd replace mine with a full headed nailer, the gun holds so many fewer nails that the ones I've udes seem like that's all you are doing is adding nail sticks. I like the loading feature compared to other brands, seems tons faster. I have two other Bostich models and if their trim nailers and staplers were as superior as the Hitachi I think I would be all Bostich.
Senco 701, It may not be too light, but it sure is bulky!!...I like it.
GB
I've been in Santa Cruz for 2 1/2 years, and I'd say about 90% of the guys I've worked with use Hitachis for framing. I have a Porter Cable I bought only because it was about half the price of the Hitachi, and shoots round head nails, which is required here. I don't do any "production" framing. I'm 50 years old, like my framing nice and crisp, and I don't use nail guns for anything but nailing off sheathing, nailing Ticos into hardware and straps, and the things that are just easier to get to with the gun. I like the way my hammer drives the wood up tight, something a nailgun doesn't do. Ever tear down a scaffold you nailed up with the guns? Then you already know gun nails don't hold near as well as 16D GV sinkers drove in tight. I'll go out on a limb here, and possibly piss someone off, but I'll say that, in my experience, the jobs where you have the most nailguns firing is where you'll see some of the sloppiest framing. That doesn't apply to everyone, I know. But new guys, who never learned to frame any way but with guns, tend to be very sloppy with their nailing patterns. Two nails, spaced about 3/4 of an inch in from either side, every sixteen inches, turns into a splattering of nails across a board, and top plates tend to get nailed to stud ends with two nails, right in the middle, half an inch apart.I have two Hitachis for running trim, as well as a Paslode Impulse. I totally use nail guns when running trim, use my hammer when framing.
Allen in Santa Cruz
Allen,
Your point about nail guns VS hand nailing stuck me. I've seen too many sloppy hand nailing jobs in the past to ever agree with your assertions. Too many bent over nails, nails set too far apart and undersized nails simply because they were easier to drive..
Quailty is quailty. The hacks were around in the prenail gun days and they are still around today.. The differance is that house get built much faster today than in the past.. (thus their cost is lower and so we have greater home ownership with all the benefits that has) .
<<<Quailty is quailty. The hacks were around in the prenail gun days and they are still around today.. The differance is that house get built much faster today than in the past.. (thus their cost is lower and so we have greater home ownership with all the benefits that has) . >>>You're right about the hacks, frenchy. But in general, if you have to place a nail with your left hand before driving it with your right, there's a better chance of the nail winding up in the right place than if someone is bouncing a nail gun along the wood. I guess my point is that hacks with nails guns do more damage than hacks with hammers. Good carpenters do a good job no matter what they're using. When I do nail with a nail gun, I take my time and do it right. I just see a lot of guys that don't.Your point about guns bringing down home prices is very true. There is definitely a need and market for houses erected as quickly and cheaply as possible, and the nail gun is a big factor in that equation.
Allen in Santa Cruz
Hi Mike, I am salesforce, are you going to train me? <g>
Out here in Nor Cal, Bostitch guns are very few and far between. Occaisionally, I will have a customer bring one in for repair, and I have to turn them away because we don't sell them or even stock parts for them. I think they must be purchasing them online? Maybe its a regional thing...?
Best selling guns here are Max, Senco, Hitachi, and Porter-Cable. The Senco guns take up more space on my repair shelf than any of the others, but they usually only need a top or bottom kit so its a simple repair.
The Hitachi magazines: There is an aftermarket company which makes excellent replacement magazines for the Hitachi guns. I can't remember the name just now...I'll look it up for you at work tomorrow.
Is it the Supco magazine I was referring to FramerT? Or is there another good replacement mag for the Hitachi? I'm paying about $140 for the Supco magazine.... could you get me a price on the one you are referring to?
Thanks :)
It's not Supco.
Off the top of my head, I can't remember the name of the company, but I will do some research for ya tomorrow. We have a guy, Eric the repair genius, at our Albany Oregon store who does all our gun repairs for us, so I'll give him a call.
The guns work like a dream once the magazine is replaced...
Yeah, it does seem nailer brands are regional. I didn't see an Hitachi until I was 35 around here. Interesting about the Sencos bench time. I have a few of them and never had any trouble (yet?)MG
Hey Mike,
I've got the Bostitch framing nailer. I bought it mostly because it's a light weight nail gun that gets the job done. I don't do a lot of framing compared to some guys, but when I have to I've got a reasonably priced reliable tool.
Jim
I love my Paslode (air powered) nailer, had it for years, never touched it. got a 16 in the groin once, never even felt it! Just missed an artery!
One thing I really like about the Bostich N88 is that you can field strip it, take care of the rare problem, and be back to nail blasting in about 15 minutes.
Oh yea, the other thing is how well it seems to handle off brand nails without jambing. It's just a simple, reliable, no frills workhorse.