OK. we are building 2 homes. One for Mother in-law and Main res. In-Law going first .. will live in that, to finish main res. In law dry walled… Main res. is in framing stage so a few months apart……..
Here is my question……..
On the in-law, Electrical Contractor #1, put in 12 gauge wiring throughout the 1200 square foot home. We Are using a different Electrical Contractor for the main house and Contractor # 2 said that 14 gauge is the standard he installs. Now I do not know much about electrical, or that it even matters… but I would love your opinion about this as we will be doing rough electrical in about a month. If it were your house.. 12 or 14 gauge wiring?
Starla
Replies
14 is cheaper, easier to work and needs 15 amp breakers.
12 is more reliable, heavier duty, safer and requires 20 amp breakers. Less prone to voltage drop and handles heat better.
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
Imerc,
You probably know beeter than me, but I think that anything up to 20 amps is ok for 12ga. If you it seems that if you under fuse it, it will pop that much sooner before danger.
SamT
You could but what for.
I should have said rated - at a max of - instead of - requires a....
I use all 12 and no 14.
!2 is saver and you have less voltage drop on the long runs.
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
I, for sure, agree with you there.
SamT
14 is fine for bedrooms living rooms and such where it's likely that your only going to have a lamp or clock or another low amp drawing appliance plugged into the circuit. Code requires that 12 gauge be used where high amp items are likely to be used. Kitchen=mixers,microwave, and such. Bathroom=hair dryer, and dining room, warming tables and the like. Using 12 gauge in every room is over kill but it won't hurt anything. And there's nothing wrong with using 14 gauge where apropraite.
Who Dares Wins.
Just FYI: the current issue of Fine Homebuilding (Dec/Jan - #160) has a good comparison of 14-gauge vs. 12-gauge in the "What's the Difference" column (p. 114).
Using anything smaller than 12 ga. is nuts. The materials cost can't be significant and the installation cost saving is negligible. Consider the fact that someone could plug ANYTHING into any outlet anywhere in the home. The safety factor of using 12 ga. is worth using it. Insist on it. If the contractor gives you grief, then get another contractor.
>> The safety factor of using 12 ga. is worth using it.
The safety factor really comes from the breaker. If you wire the house with 14 guage wire and 20 amp breakers that *could* be a problem and is definitely a code violation. If someone plugs something demanding too much current into an outlet wired with 14 guage, it's the breaker that's going to prevent a problem.
Also those amperage ratings are EXTREMELY conservative, the wire is actually derated already by the NEC when they figured the current ratings. This is an extremely smart safety measure which I applaud.
All that being said I would use 12 guage for the flexibility of having 20 amps anywhere I need it.
When people 100 years from now see my work, they'll know I cared. --Matt Mulka
I use 12ga in my home. 14 ga for the lighting circuit w/ a 15 amp breaker is per code. But 12ga well exceeds code. remember code is the minimum acceptable quality. There is nothing wrong with exceeding it.BTW gunner they let you in here..Geeze I thought this was a classy place or sumtin..:>)Â
Darkworksite4:
Estamos ganando detrás el estado de Calif. Derrotando a un #### a la vez. DESEA VIVO LA REVOLUCIÓN
Edited 12/12/2003 10:55:42 AM ET by RonT
Sshh I'm sneaking in.Who Dares Wins.
have to disagree, 14 ga is MORE than adequete for any household wiring, 12 ga is way overkill, too expensive, for labour intensive(wire is stiffer, harder to hook up)
save the money and use it for other stuff like more gfci s and more circuits
use 12 ga for kitchens, maybe the laundry room and very long runs
come on, a bedroom lamp uses less than 1 amp, why feed it with wire suitable for 20 amp?caulking is not a piece of trim
Once the receptacles are in place and the builder and/or original homeowner is gone from the scene, anybody can plug anything into any outlet. You don't know what that is. What happens if some bloke decides to fire up a dozen electric space heaters? I say to err on the side of safety while you can. The wire is cheap compared to the cost of installation. Compared to doing a lot of things, bending 12 gage wire rates as pretty easy in my experience.
I agree. I have only to look at my own home, wired by someone with questionable judgement, to know that. Imagine my surprise when working on the computer one day when the breaker flipped. My husband had plugged his compressor into one of the exterior outlets (not gfci, nor even protected from the water, just a plain ordinary outlet) and when it kicked on the breaker flipped. Yes, that outside plug was the same circuit as my office, and the game room downstairs. Were they all wired at the same time? I dunno, it's possible. It's also possible that the guy who finished the downstairs just extended the circuit that seemed to be handy. Since we can never predict the future of our homes, I'd say wiring the best you can afford is a good idea.
sophie,
Hey, why not put each receptacle on its own 20 amp circuit, and wire it with 10 gage on a 20A breaker? And make it an arc-fault breaker to boot? Oh and how about using steel boxes throughout? And then what the heck, let's use metal clad cable! Better yet, how about conduit? That'll give us a versatile, safer, more robust system!
But seriously folks, if you think about it, a house built today is going to see LESS demand for electrical power than one built 30 years ago, except in the kitchen and bathrooms. A new house will probably not see electric space heaters used regularly. (If they are, for some reason, you retrofit a separate 20A circuit where needed.) Consumer electronics are solid state and use less power, not more. Light fixtures (well, the lamps at least) are sometimes fluorescent these days with much lower power requirements.
I recognize that there are good arguements on either side of the issue. But the difference in price is not insignificant between all 12 gage and an appropriate mix of 14 and 12 gage--at least in my bids (I'm a licensed electrical contractor). And it's a rare case even in a custom house when the homeowner or builder is willing to pay the additional cost for all 12 gage. They want to spend extra money on stuff you can see--floor tile, countertops, etc.
If, in developing the electrical plan for a new house, we do identify special needs outside of the kitchen counters and bathrooms, I often suggest running another 15 amp circuit to serve them--unless it's necessary to have 20 amps at the outlet.
AT any rate, hope that the contruction is going well on the original poster's houses.
Cliff
Curious...what would the extra cost be for the bedrooms, and whatever other rooms that are not "expected" to have a full load? $100..$1000?
Cheers,
Peter
You are correct about 14 ga but that's based on current knowledge/use. Who's to say that 5 years down the pike that bedwroom becomes a home office. With 12 ga/20 amp breakers, you are going to be better prepared. Retro fitting is expensive and wasteful compared with upfront planning and minimal investment.
We have a lot of code builders in our area - they feel the building code is a stopping point; if you can afford it, pick a builder/electrician who uses the code as a starting point and 12 ga vs. 14 ga is a perfect example.
Minimum size wire for a 15 amp circuit is 14 gauge, minimum size wire for a 20 amp circuit is 12 gauge, but that doesn't mean you can't use 12 gauge wire for a 15 amp circuit. You'll get less voltage drop with the 12 gauge wire and it's a lot easier upgrade the circuit to 20 amps later if necessary.
As far as material costs go, obviously 12 gauge wire is going to cost more than 14 gauge, but not by much. The electrician may charge more for installing 12 gauge wire since it's somewhat stiffer, larger in diameter and heavier, but in new construction with all the walls open that's less of an issue than it would be if he was fishing wires through existing walls.
I'm an electrical engineer, and I always specify 12 gauge minimum on my projects. I figure it's worth the additional cost.
While you're at it, consider using 'specification grade' receptacles and light switches. They'll cost more, but they're a LOT better than those 29 cent jobs you'll find in the bins at Home Depot.
I am a licensed electrician in the state of Washington. The National Electrical Code standards are quite adequate for today's uses but our requirements for power have increased astronomically in the last 20 years or so.
That said the contractor is not shining you on. He is correct. However home wiring is bid tightly and the competition for the work is fierce. He is doing his best to give you a low bid to get the job fairly. Probably. #14 is cheaper to buy and faster and easier to work with. There is nothing wrong with it, you just can't run more than 1 portable heater or heating appliance on that circuit but frankly you can't do that with a 20 amp circuit either. The differences are minor.
An electrician who is used to doing commercial work will wire differently than one who does residential. It may not occur to him to use #14 wire. I have done both but it is years since I've wired a house.
It is not standard procedure everywhere but it is a good idea to specify that you want your switched lighting seperate from other outlet circuits. That way you will not be left groping in the dark when sombody turns on the laser printer when you are plugging in that little space heater.
Personally I am old enough that I like cieling fixtures instead of switched outlets.
I hope this was helpful.