Anybody out there familiar with hidden or “secret doors”? I’ve built a few utilizing SOS hinges but I’ve had a recent request that’s gotten my noodle in a twist. It seems this client would like her doors to be 8′ tall, flush with the face of the wall on both sides (without any caseing mouldings), no jamb head (ie: door goes floor to ceiling), and no visible hardware. Ultimately the door has to be as thick as the wall itself, which, in my limited experience poses clearance and mounting issues with the SOS hardware I’m familiar with. Finally, when the door is closed it is to blend nearly seamlessly with the existing wall. I’ve just started the brainstorming process and I wondering about spring loaded pivots, resturaunt-style double swinging doors, etc. Any suggestions to help guide a youngster in the right direction?
Thanks=>David
Replies
Does she have an unlimited budget? The problems I see right off are that the ceiling, floor and jamb will have to be perfect and exactly at 90 degrees to one another. Even given those conditions I don't see how you'll be able to get the door to clear the floor and ceiling and still look seamless. Seems like the building and/or fire department may have something to say about the lack of a door knob.
I think you're on the right track with the spring-loaded pivot hinge idea. Sort of a heavy-duty site-built version of the pivot hinge on a bifold door, maybe?
I don't know what you should do at the floor and ceiling, but for the side jambs I would consider this: make the door a trapezoid, angling both edges 10 degrees or so, and match the angles on the jamb. Combined with the pivot hinge this should allow the door to swing unimpeded.
Good luck!
Most of the bifold and restraunt hardware I have seen is centered on the door. They still require some clearance for the pivot side to clear the jamb.
Dave
Dave, that's why I thought the angled jambs would be a good idea. They would allow the gap to be nearly eliminated.
Any specific hardware items I might research?
DAvid
Sorry got it. Riixon
I've done one blind door in a plaster wall that was flush to the wall surface. We plastered right up to the jambs. I can draw a sketch of the detail and attach it if you want.
There's a thread right now on the JLC Finish Carpentry forum about blind doors... Gary Katz has a couple of good details and there's a suggestion for Rixson pivot hinges and some info on those.
hidden doors
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Edited 12/20/2004 9:41 am ET by Cloud Hidden
Dave
You might try using Rixon hinges . I've used them for extreamly heavy doors there excellent . A little pricey but it sounds like she can afford it .
Good to read some of your thoughts. I'm actually trying to get the client to relax her expectations a bit so I can surprise her with a seemingly improbable feat. Thank goodness you confirmed some of my immediate concerns: 1) If those that come before me are not on the ball, squaring and leveling, I'm up the creek 2)Angling the jambs to fit the doors makes Pythagoras happy and allows clearance without much of a gap 3)The hardware is paramount here. thanks I'll check on your suggestions. THis can turn into quite a rewarding challenge or a nightmare. It's still early enough to choose which one. Off to work/play.
Thanks =>David
In 1990 I made a secret door like that. I framed the wall up solid, and built the door very precisely from scratch. I think I had to match up with oak tambour on one side. The inside went to a projection room and did not have to match seamlessly. I also forget what hinges I used, but got them through an architect. One approach might be to use some recessed european hinges and angle the latch side of the door. I built the door so it would open at a push, much like a stereo cabinet, with a magnetic latch.
You guys sure get involved with some cool projects. Bend your brains a bit too.
You guys are all have more experience than me. I can't figure a way to get around the fact that the door is going to fit seamlessly on both sides. A regular door needs to have about a 4 degree bevel to clear the jam on the latch side and on a 4" thick door, that would make a huge gap on one side of the wall. Am I missing something?
You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.
Marv
Edited for spelling.
Edited 12/20/2004 11:38 am ET by Marv
Bevel the frame and jambs to match.Les Barrett Quality Construction
I can't figure a way to get around the fact that the door is going to fit seamlessly on both sides
Neither can I, short of a motel-style "party" door with a panel flush to either outside wall.
I've run into this before--the client has seen it done in movies & tv, therefore it can be done in real life.
Riiiiiight.
We'll just pivot that 96" tall, 12" deep, 36" wide bookcase seemlessly, and it will not need any modifications to do so . . .
The "dual" master bedrrom house where the one bookcase was supposed to be the door between the MB's was a particular fave. Cut out a rectangle 24" x 42" to any old scale. Stick a pin in it, and see if a 4º bevel helps any where . . .
(It wound up being a pocket door with wainscotting to match the two different walls--the casing was scribed to clear the mouldings on either side--yeow, I'm glad I didn't have to do that.)Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
What needs to be done is the edge of the door should have a convex edge, and the jamb a matching concave profile. The radious is the same as the distance from the hinge pivot point to the edge the of the door. Get two pair of custom cutters made(convex,concave) for a shaper. They will cost abought $200 per set.
The idea of using concave and convex cutters is a really good idea. It makes figuring placement of hardware a bit easier. This relates to the trapezoidal shape suggested earlier. Its really about clearence at point of initial closing and how the door sits in relation to the jam (which will be the adjacent wall). Oh, and to clear up for all those that I caught up on the word "seamless"; so did I when I heard it from the client. I addressed that immediately and I now have an understanding. The potential existed for the impossible expectation ("I want a seamless door on a white plaster wall that has no obvious detail in which to hide the seam" - not going to happen). Now I have to decide how Im going to keep the weight down and the sound attenuation up. Today they're pouring the floor and that means I have much less time than originally thought - oh joy==Thanks==>David
'sound attenuation up' You mean down right? You want to keep the sound from passing thru the door to the other side, no? If so I would recomend brush seal let into the edges of the door, since it swings both ways.
'sound attenuation up' You mean down right? - -
I most used that word in reference to reducing, lessening or weakening - the sound. So yes and no. I just learned that it means to make thinner or less dense. But I agree with this- - less sound to other side. Cool idea with the sweepy things. I;m thinking foam core
Dvid
I think you meant up. More attenuated, less sound. Attenuate means to make small, and you want to make more small, so more attenuated.
for a shaper. They will cost abought $200 per set.
Yeah, for an 1 3/4" door--I can see that.
This is for nigh unto 6" of plastered wall, though. Not sure I want to know what an 8" or 12" wide knife set for 35 7/8 and 36 1/8 radii costs.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I thought it was a 4.5" wall. Even so the knives would only have to be a 1/4" wider than the wall. Schmidt qouted me a price of under $250 per pair if the knives are under 6.5" wide. The depth of cut would only be a 1/4" at its deepest point. So you could take 3/4" jamb stock, mill in the concave profile , nail it to the jamb frame(2x6), and then bring the dw up close and feather the mud to it.
thought it was a 4.5" wall.
Could be--I've got work troubles distracting me, so, my brain might have been "locked" on the commercial walls I'm dealing with.
and then bring the dw up close and feather the mud to it.
Which would likely work fine. especially with a pivot (floor & head mount) hinge set, rather than a jamb-edge set of hinges.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
If the door only opens in one direction, there should be no need for cutting a convex edge and concave jamb. Flat surfaces on a slight angle to the plane of the door should work. Something like this BUAG drawing:
_____________ ______________________________
-- J.S.
He said the client wants the door to swing both ways. Hence the disscussion of pivot hinges, etc.
Ah, so the client swings both ways! That explains a lot!(Sorry, it was there and I couldn't resist)
OK, then how about a square edge on the door and recess the jamb just a small amount, perhaps with some RCT weatherstrip to conceal the trick and prevent light leaks that would give away the secret. There has to be a way to do this without special curved knives.
-- J.S.
Hey if the client wants a custom job, then they have to expect some costs to come with it. The knives would allow a reveal of only a 1/16"
> The knives would allow a reveal of only a 1/16"
But they're the kind of tool I really hate.
They cost a fortune. You use them for one job. They kick around in you box of odds and ends for a dozen years or more. Finally you toss them out. Then two weeks later along comes another job where you coulda used them. I've had that happen more than once. ;-)
-- J.S.
>> Finally you toss them out.You throw stuff away???
You throw out your knives! What are you nuts. One of the great things abought having a shop is the collection of knives, router bits, and other tooling you add to your arsenal, that the clients paid for. Do you throw away other specialty tools after you use them once. Regardless, send your knives, whatever the profile, my way if you dont want them.
I used to sell off or toss things, until I figured out that the answer to the question "When will I ever need that again?" is always "About two weeks after you get rid of it." ;-)
-- J.S.
If you guys keep this up, my wife's going to get wind of it and make me stop visiting. I'm a natural-born packrat, and she's been working on me for years to change that.
Way to set the curve tone. YOU must have gotten geometry class.
Thanks=>dAvid
Thanks. Um actually I did'nt do so well in geometry class. As you will notice by the name I am a bit of a tinkerer, sometimes good ideas just pop in my head. I do have one patent tho # 5820139
Hope you take pics as the job progresses and post them.
What is the finish of the surrounding walls? Plaster? wood paneling?
The finish surround will be plaster EVERYWHERE, with a patina concrete floor.
No moulding or anything? How is that going to be truly hidden? Won't there be a crack in the plaster?
Anyway, just to throw something out, since budget seems unlimited, does the door absolutely have to open on the horizontal plane? Could it be built to sink into the floor or rise into the ceiling a la Get Smart? That would get rid of all the problems of a swinging door where the floors aren't perfectly level ;-) Of course, you might need to have an engineer and who knows what else figure this all out. If I had a door like that, I'd want some demo equipment stored inside in case it came off its tracks.
Otherwise, since there's no hardware visible, I think you would need two trapezoids - one opening in and another opening out. The door woudl need to swing both ways.
Invisible hinges:
http://www.hardwaresource.com/Store_ViewCatLevel3.asp?Cat=599&OrderID=
I think most of the traditional 'secret doors' were concealed in trimwork, shelves, or some such. A plain white wall would be hard to conceal a door in, unless the whole wall was a door.
Cloud inserted a picture of a shelf-concealed door. Attached is a pic of one my uncle put in his house. He has a shelf unit on either side of the 'secret' doorway. There is actually enough gap between the two that someone can stand between them with the shelves pulled shut. Technically his isn't a secret door, it was just one of the novelties he included for the grandkids to play with.
I don't know the exact hinges he used, but they kinda look like piano hinges. They extend down the height of the shelf unit (72" piano hinge?). The doors open with very little effort, even with a load of books on the shelves. Dont' know what the doorframe blocking consisted of.
Now, that's the way to hinge a bookcase.
As opposed to trying to do that with a bookcase "buried" in a wall . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
A plain white wall would be hard to conceal a door in, unless the whole wall was a door.
Ah, cut control joints in the wall at exactly the door spacing. Then, the door panel looks like any of the other panels.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
john.. i built a "nancy drew" door like the one in your picture for a client in 1980..
we used a piano hingeMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
john.. i built a "nancy drew" door like the one in your picture for a client in 1980..
we used a piano hinge
Was the piano hinge strong enough to hold the shelf (with books) up by itself, or did you sneak a caster under the shelf?jt8
That's the problem with a bookshelf door. If you really load it with books you can have several hundred pounds, and you either need a really massive hinge or casters on the bottom. And the caster marks will be a give-away, if you're really trying to keep it secret.
One door I saw once (really just designed to allow access to the attic staircase) was concealed behind a shoe rack in the back of a closet. Pretty easy to hide something in the back of a closet, since you don't have to match the rest of a wall, and lighting is generally less than ideal.
there was no castor... but the details are a little vague... it was 24 years ago
this was about 2' wide x 3' high tucked into a kneewallMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Ya gotta have something -- paneling with joints, bookcases, etc, to break up the wall and hide the door edges. You also need some sort of clearance top and bottom for the door to open without dragging on the floor or ceiling.
One way to handle this would be to somehow have trim top and bottom that hinges a bit to make clearance.
Another, somewhat oddball approach would be to have the door slide straight into the wall slightly, then either hinge away or slide to the side, leaving trim in four places intact (which will, unfortunately, create a trip hazard).
A way to make it hinge outward would be to effectively move the hinge pivot about 6" to one side of the door (obviously requires special hinges, perhaps from a blacksmith or machine shop, though some Blum hinges might come close). This would allow a piece of paneling, complete with side trim, to swing forward without interference. Top and bottom trim is still a problem, though.
Has she explained why it has to be the full height? That's really a killer requirement, due to the clearance problems.
If all she's looking for is a seamless appearance, as one might want for a door "hidden" in the paneled walls of a church alter area, the thing to do is to have a dark-painted recess at the top and bottom of the entire wall, and also have dark recesses at the joints between the panels.
Actually, from pictures I've seen, the White House has some doors like you describe. Once you figure out how to build one, figure out how to build one into the wall of an oval shaped room!
Some movie I saw showed someone trying to figure out how to leave the Oval Office gracefully, since the door (nearly) disappears when closed.
Bela Lugosi had a secret door in his house. It was the swinging bookshelf type, about 6 - 7 ft. wide, and rotated around a center pole of, IIRC, 2" pipe. The large width made it less obviously a door, and made it possible to rotate around the center for balance. I saw it once in the 1970's, shortly before the house was demoed to make way for a freeway offramp. BTW, the only offramp in the freeway system that has a vampire's curse on it. ;-)
-- J.S.
Yeah, lots of the hidden doors behind bookcases in old movies rotated around a center axis. This may have been a case of art immitating life, with butler's doors and the like in old houses working that way.
you didn't say it had to "hinge" if you pivot it in the center it can "turn", if you have the room to make this happen... as far as for this idea or any of the others what i've found that makes great extra heavy duty "hinges/pivots" are auto/trailer hub & axles... front wheel drive cars have the whole bearing hub axle that can be adapted... or a basic trailer axle stub, hub & bearing set up will swing a 1000lb door with all but zero effort if you sink the hub in the floor and line up your upper pivot point dead on center with it......
pony
Called a jib door...
Do you know where that term comes from? I love learning new words....
Here's a site that specializes in hidden doors.
http://www.hiddendoors.com
Be sure not to go to hiddendoor.com
You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.
Marv
Hey this "Jib Door". THat's the name for what I'm trying to do here?
David
Yup. Jib door is the proper term for a door that's made flush with the wall to disquise it. I have no idea what the etymology is.
You see jib doors a lot in Palladian and Georgian architecture--usually to maintain the visual order of a room by obscuring a door that would otherwise disrupt the symmetry of a room, or to conceal a servant's passage. The Oval Office has at least one jib door.
Came across a door at a home & garden show. It didn't fit flush on both sides but had an interesting hardware system. I went digging through all the stuff I save and found SpaceXDoors. This was a number of years ago but then they had a website of http://www.spacexdoors.com It is (or was) a division of Infinity Products, 15467 E. Hinsdale Circle, Englewood, CO 80112. 303-699-5763 or 1-888-858-2088.
It was supposed to provide functional space where a door was needed. The brochure lists many uses including "Secret Passages", and "Hidden Room Doors". It had both a surface mount and a custom recessed mount. It could lock. They took special orders. It had a smooth gliding heavy duty roller mechanism with SS track and could easily carry 300 lbs. I think they were made in Utah. They were not cheap. It works like a bifold.
My neighbor made a single solid door that looked like a bookcase. He bought all kinds of bound books at garage sales and cut most of the book off on a radial saw. The books were set so the bindings were not all even and glued in place. Really cut down on the weight. Try the website--my stuff is dated. Tyr
tried to make a flush drywall door once...tell the client fugged about it.....if they're not smart enough to realize that it'll never work right w/out some kind of trim or panel detail to make it "blend", then you'll never make'm happy....just IMHO....
I agree that it cant be totally invisable, but thats what he said the client wanted. One thought though, perhaps a whit silicone fliper seal could be attatched to the edges of the door so you dont see a dark shadow line.
I did this for a small bar in a conference room years ago. However only one side had to be hidden. The wall was bookmatched 1/4 cherry veneer plywood. I laid the door out to line up with the edges of the veneer flitches and cut the plywood very carefully with a utility knife. I glued the plywood to a hollow core door cut to size and used Soss hinges to hang it. I left a 1/4" reveal top and bottom along the entire length of the wall. I painted the wall at the reveal black to create a shadow line, top and bottom, before applying the paneling. Worked like a charm. You really had to look closely to see the joints. I've noticed over the years that most people are not very observant and unless they know something exists they won't expect anything out of the ordinary is there.
Doing this on both sides would raise the degree of difficulty considerably. Good Luck! I don't think I could do this now as it's been years and my eyes aren't what they used to was.
Happy Holidays
I hope when she came up with these rather rigid requirements you immediately started talking about how expensive it would be. Clients fantasiees often exceed their financial reach. Contractors are basically people pleasers and often get in over our heads accordingly. If your motivation for doing this is to go where no man has gone before, well then speed on, young man, hells only half full but if If youre motivation is to make a living doing this I hope you told her that would cost a lot! Write and tell us what happens
Sometimes the greatest service you can do for some people is to guide them into wanting something easier and cheaper
Merry Christmas
Ok, went bac kt othe original post, here's what's wanted:
this client would like her doors to be 8' tall, flush with the face of the wall on both sides, without ... mouldings, ... door goes floor to ceiling, ... no visible hardware ... the door has to be as thick as the wall itself ... [f]inally, when the door is closed it is to blend nearly seamlessly with the existing wall.
Now, that got me thinking a bit. This door has to clear both ceiling & floor, and swivel out of the wall. "Swivel" knocked loose a thought--center pivoting. This was in an earlier thread, but as a door; what I'm thinking of is building a bit of wall. Seems like there are some monster ball bearing pivots out there about 4" around.
The center pivot means the door geometry is symetrical. It also means that the door can't open against the wall marring the joint.
The only trouble is coming up with a stop. A bullet catch in the "door" bottom would work, but only if it were scaled up a bit. Then, the catch might drag on the floor, making a neat circle in the floor--less-than good. Perhaps a set of "fishing" magnets would do the trick. They could be in either the floor or the "jambs."
Just noodling on it.
There are magnetic latches that would work -- require a "key" containing the magnet. Otherwise, a remote electrical latch could be used or a detent could be built into the swivel.The balanced door is good, because otherwise it's almost impossible to maintain tight alignment and a seamless appearance. Even with the balanced door, a very slight movement of the foundation, or wood shrinkage somewhere, could upset things.
Another advantage of the center swivel is that it would be easy (by way of a motor in attic/cellar) to motorize it, adding greatly to the "gee-whiz" factor that is apparently desired.
Howdy Folks:
So here's the latest utilizing the information thats been kicked around here. I wanted to run with a couple of options. One that shows promise you guys built. If I plan on a 4-1/2"thick 3-0, 8-0 door I would expect the pivot axis to be at 2-1/4" from edge and faces. This radius will also be transferred to the left and right vertical edges of the door . Top and bottom remain flat. The jambs would be convex of the same radius and milled to accept drywall. Because of this radius, the farthest left and right extremes of the door are always concealed in the jamb until they break the plane of the jamb so a sweep strip or felt or whatever may not be necessary on the door edge for light issues. Can be added later if its a big stink. I looked at some $840 spring loaded pivots that can also act as a hold open. Before I saw those I thought of running a piece of 3/4" pipe right up through the axis with bearings (like for hubs) placed every 2 feet inside the door and a hole drilled in the floor with another set of sheathed bearings, a stop welded onto the lower end of the pipe that the door would directly rest on (like a giant washer or something) and of course inset into the door, and another bearing set between that and the insertion mechanism on the floor. In the upper portion, just the pipe with no modifications sticking out of the top of the door, and inset into the head (the ceiling)another sheathed set of bearings. Like a bifold, alight the top to the hole, lift it up to the extreme, set into bottom mounting hole, gravity keeps it in. I also thought if I offset the axis slightly, I could make it self closing. Then build the jamb around it. (but maybe not) Ball catch mounted where lockset would be and custom strike made which would be a curved strap of metal inset into the jamb and not visible when the door is closed but would catch the ball and not rip the jamb. Problems: no lock, aNY movement in building problematic b/c no adjustment possible, no hold open but much cheaper and probably more sturdy as axis is solid throughout and bearings are easly replaced.. I thought I'd build a metalwork truss frame for the door, sheath it in two layers of 1/4" after filling it with foam making sure that the seam where the skin meets the milled convex edge is located on the curve side and not the face in case there is any issues there. Whew! Gonna draw this one up and start thinking about the trapezoidal shaped oprion. I'm not finding concealed hardware that I like for this yet but I have to have a plan "b" if the former is found to have to many flaws. Thanks guys. Your checks are in the mail. HO HO HO! Back to fixing my OWN front door. Does SCHLAGE face up or down on this darn deadbolt. Ha HA. . .
Sorry to long=>David
I assume you are aware that you're dealing with two different radii -- that the left and right radius will be different.You need to be sure to make allowances to adjust the thing after installation, particularly the top pivot. This could be done via screw adjustments in the pivot-side edge, or via adjustments in the floor/ceiling pivots.And obviously, you need to brace the door very well, and assure that the floor and ceiling are completely flat nearby.
Thanks for the reminder of the radii. Up late brainstorming also requires making extra sure I haven't thought of something and not specified it. Boy can those be costly. Having not made the mock up yet, the pivot side door edge radius would be pivot to edge, the strike side radius would be pivot to strike side edge. I think someone along this thread actually threw out a number that was a clue to this important detail.
Dvd
I thought I'd build a metalwork truss frame for the door
Could use 20ga metal studs & channel for the frame. That could make it easier to frame up and then skin out.
Was just thinking of concealed access panels--but the hinge "stile" might be the best place for an access to get to the hinges.
Is this to be a passage door, a privacy door, or just a novelty itme for the house? I'm trying not to imagine a hallway of these things . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
BTW, these will be passage doors. Imagine a partition running the length of the single story house, ocean side to land side. Behind you all floor to ceiling windows,even around the corner. Ocean to your left. The wall in front of you has at its furthest left, a 10'w x 8' pocket door and then a smooth white wall with three of these doors in a row separated by about 10' then the 4th. at the farthest right, at a right angle to the wall. Each leads into either master BDR, Master wardrobe, or Two other rooms that I haven'st found a name for. This whole place is pretty torn up now so I'm trying to see it finished so I can reverse engineer as well.
-DMD
You may want to put the pivot more than 2-1/4" from the edge so that the door can open more than 90 degrees without the face hitting the jamb on the pivot side. Also consider a much wider door, say 5'-0". You could use a center pivot, and the weight is balanced. With the edges farther apart, it's less obvious that it's a door.
-- J.S.
That's good thinking on the extreme opening positions. I think I'll spend my afternoon tomorrow doing what I should have started doing earlier; a nice scrap ply profile mock-up. Having spent some time building with Maine islanders, they have made me aware of my bookworm ways. No matter how much I sit and calculate, the final variable is waiting for me in the field. They always used to say that if you cut two pieces of wood and they fit where their supposed to, the way their supposed to, even if the numbers might be different, than you end up throwing the directions out anyways don't you?? Looking around at some of these houses built in the late 1700's by their forefathers by hand I am reminded the value of forethought and simplicity.
==David
David There is also a current discussion over at JLC about hidden doors, not like the one you need to make, but you might be able to glean some info from that thread.
Gary Katz has has a cool animated drawing of a hidden bookcase door.
The pivot hinge they talk about using is the 370 pivot set by Rixson that is rated for 500 lbs.
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"Edited to add image of the hinge"
Edited 12/23/2004 2:54 pm ET by Chad G