I read where the Dept. of Energy says that Water Source Heat Pumps are the single most efficient way of heating and cooling, but won’t mention/promote individual products.. Can anyone tell me about any particular residential models which they know from first hand experience actually live up to the phenomenal performance numbers they purport to achieve? Thanks in CT!
Edited 5/16/2007 9:17 am ET by LukeDaniel
Replies
Look into the life cycle costs for these systems. Yes, they are efficient, but what is the total cost over 10-20 years if maintenance, repairs, etc., are factored in? If I spend $15K in additional up front costs to save $10K over ten years, am I really better off? Unless your state or utility offers a substantial incentive to install one of these systems, I'd look very hard at the numbers and the claims.
but what is the total cost over 10-20 years if maintenance, repairs, etc., are factored in?
I haven't seen anything that suggested that closed loop geothermal units had any higher maint costs than would a forced air furnace and central AC unit.
Most of the additional cost associated with a geothermal system is due to the installation of the ground loop. The ground loop should have long life (assuming Art & his well drilling rig/backhoe aren't next door) and wouldn't need replacement even if the heatpump unit eventually died. So at that point, you would just be replacing the heatpump unit and it would probably be comparable or cheaper than having to replace a nat. gas furnace/central AC combo.
So if your geothermal heatpump had a comparable lifespan to a nat. gas furnace/central AC combo, you're still coming out ahead.jt8
"One of the true tests of leadership is the ability to recognize a problem before it becomes an emergency." -- Arnold H. Glasgow
I agree 200% with your statement. I have helped install ground source, air source and water source (pond) systems. I have heard of every type of system fail as well. Longevity and trouble free operation of any type of system is very rare and the more complicated it is the more expensive it is to repair. Heat pumps are VERY complicated.
I have serviced different types of heating systems and I know of several customers who loved their system yet I was there on a regular basis fixing different aspects. My mother had a car that went in for regular service and got fixed everytime the mechanic said something needed to be replaced (and that was often) and yet she always said the car was the best she ever had.
I tell my customers if they want to save money in the heating season : turn the temp way down low, put on sweaters and replaces those stupid window blinds and install heavy drapes. Believe it or not Europe and the rest of the world have always done it. We are like hot house plants and want to be comfortable and there is a huge cost for that luxury, and it is a luxury.
I just have to practice what I preach.;)
roger
1st, welcome to BT as first time poster.
This is actually a DIY friendly site, so please fill in your profile (click on your name, then the line that says change profile)
I'll first address tis as if you are an accomplished DIY.
GSHP provide a very good rationale for a DIY to buy a used backhoe!, or even a well drilling rig. You can pay for the backhoe in about 8 years with the savings if you do a diy install in any extreme climate area.
The only GSHP I have direct experience with was homebuilt from surplus parts.
Phenomenal numbers for $$ savings are relative to the climate you are in. Somewhere that needs nearly no AC in the summer and rarely falls below 45 F in the winter has less that 10% GSHP savings over air source as a high plains unit that sees 110F summers and -30F winter.
If you are not DIY, you will gets lots of brand name suggestions but no cost data over at HVAC-talk.com.
Come back here with details if you are a DIY.
Edit PS BTW - already have a backhoe and well drilling rig, and EPA licenses. Have a 4T scroll compressor and heat exchangers sitting in sheds waiting to be used. Even so, living under shade in Seattle area, GSHP does not pay to install here even DIY if I count my time for anything, so will wait a few years to install it until retired and will continue using the air-air heat pump till then. Then the system will tie both together, so the air-air will still provides heat when air temp over 52 F, the break point in my area for OPERATING cost only between air-air and GSHP.
BTW 2 - congratulations on using GSHP vs. the marketeers use of 'geothermal', which is technically incorrect but does sound 'oh so green'!
Edited 5/16/2007 12:59 pm ET by junkhound
I installed a G.T.H.V.A.C 12 years ago in a 100 yo house.
I paid about $20G for it. The utility was offering low % loan, 2.5%; figured into your electric bill.
In 12 years, I've only replaced filters. The system works. I'd do it again even if I had to pay cash. I have no idea what I've saved over gas/oil/straight electric. If I had to guess, based on other homes my size, 70%
Even though it helps with your hot water, it's no help when you have 5 kids taking nice, long, hot showers every day. My next deal is to figure out how to get hot water cheaper...........and how to make solar cheaper.........
I'd love to cut the line coming in..........
Many, many years ago, I did some work for an old, retired EE who had a beachfront home in Olympia, Washington. He said he spent a fortune in stainless steel plumbing to run his heat exchanger out into the bay, but bragged continuously about how well it worked and how cheap it was to run. As far as I know, his grandkids are still living in the house. That was around 1979, guess he was a bit ahead of his time.
On a more modern note, a fellow I know put in a ground-source heatpump in NE Oklahoma, said it paid for itself in about 8 years.
An air-to-air heat pump stops producing useable heat at around 40 degrees, ground source or water source heat pumps don't have that limit as their exchanger is in a 'constant temperature' zone.
Actually, air-based heat pumps are available for use in northern climates. Generically they are called Cold Climate Heat Pumps (CCHP), and they can operate with outside are temperatures as low as -30 F. Of course, efficiency falls off as air temperature drops, but it will always be better than electric resistance heating (which is expensive in general). A link for more info on some is at:
http://www.energyexperts.org/energy_solutions/res_details.cfm?resourceID=3517&keyword=heat%20pumps§or=All
For LukeDaniel, a lot of the usefulness of GSHP commentary here for your (envisioned?) application will depend on the type of pump/ground heat exchange you would have. That could be a "slinky" type closed-loop coil buried under 6-8 feet of ground covering a fairly large area, with a glycol-water circulation by pump. Or it could be vertically drilled dry wells, with U-tubes packed with bentonite, requiring on the order of 200 feet per ton of heat load. Or it could be a drilled water well, with the used water either returned to the top of the well (standing column well, SCW) or to a different well. Measured data for SCW designs indicate around 80 feet of water column per ton of heat load. A lot depends on your topology and geology. If you have a drilled well already and it is deep enough, or if this is a new house that will have its own well drilled anyway, then the well-drilling cost may be just the difference to have it go deep enough. So cost of GSHP and payout really depend on the particular situation and can't be generalized. Whatever you do, be sure to have the system properly designed and sized carefully for the actual house to be served. Rules of thumb on capacity won't cut it. Hope this helps.
Edit: A useful URL for information on GHSP is: http://www.northeastgeo.com
One of the principals is Carl Orio, an expert in the field and author of many papers on the subject. The company is Water Energy Distributors, in southern NH, and they serve the whole NE area. Their site says they are having a session for potential residential customers on May 26, 2007 at their office, 8-12, if you are interested.
Edited 5/16/2007 2:43 pm ET by DickRussell
Wow! Thank you all so much for your kind hospitality and feedback.. I'm really glad to have happened across this site. As yet sort of a "babe in the cyber-woods", I've only relatively recently surrendered and gotten my ink wet with this contraption here at my fingertips.. when I was in school the Jesuits had us studying things like Latin and Metaphysics.. with no computer sciences or anything useful such as tuning a carburetor... (there would come many a time I'd be broken down by the roadside cursing in Latin..) Consequently, thru trial and primarily error I became a DIY-guy, and to the extent that current osteo-limitations will allow I'm now in the midst of building my second and likely (knock on composite.. lol ) my last, house.. where I hope to retire while doing my humble little eco-bit for the future continuation of the planet... I really am amused by the sort of "greener than thou" attitude that seems to have lately been sprouting up.. But perhaps this kind of background info on my part is better pasted onto the profile section (thanks for the direction, junkhound!) which is where it's headed from here..
To TJK, your point is very well taken.. and it's difficult to know just how much utility rates will rise in the near future but 3 weeks ago our local electric co. boosted their rate scale 50% if that's an indication. We're in the process of integrating 24 photovoltaic panels (5Kw) into the south face of the roof for which the state has given a $23,ooo subsidy/rebate incentive. The cap is $25,ooo and perhaps I can get the balance to then apply toward a WSHP layout.. which would certainly help the already stretched thin to the point of whiplash budget.
Hi junkhound, your suggestion of a used backhoe makes a huge load of sense.. but right now I could only afford a fixer-upper.. which I wouldn't know how to fix up without alot of additional research.. which in typical Catch22 fashion, I don't have the time for right now (unless you maybe know a Jesuit who'd come along with it and do basic maintenance on spec for my over-abundance of prayers.. lol).
My gratitude to the several of you who expressed an interest: The specifics of my projected design, as always, open to further suggestion: I've pretty much ruled out a well coupled approach. I can get a 300ft well drilled for around $2800, but I'm told I wouldn't be able to use it for supply water to the house or even irrigation. The state of Ct currently only sanctions closed loop systems so a glycol solution would have to be sent down thru the tubing absorbing the constant ground temp (here around 55 degrees) and the well would be used exclusively for that purpose. We are on a town water main so that wouldn't be any great sacrifice, but I might need 3 wells (according to one contractor who bid $26k, turnkey) to accommodate the 1800+ FEET OF PEX necessary for optimum geo-transfer.
Note: I already have about 8000 ft of assorted pex pipe which I acquired for around 20 cents a ft. surplus from another larger job... to use for potable water as well as radiant floor heating.. I figure to take a continuous 2000 ft roll and slinky the thing horizontally 6ft below grade (we have 3+ acres on which to do so)... and any pipe left over could be sunk into the driveway and walkways to melt winter ice using a separate tankless water heater. What has me wondering on this point is how to get something that springy to stay down prior to the backfilling.. And just how much should I be concerned about sharp rocks etc. impaling the pex.. would I need to truck in a protective layer of sand? The soil is pretty rocky... should we fasten to wire mesh in the trenches like in the slabs for radiant flooring? HELP!!!! to all of you with insight and/or personal experience... I'll come back later with a couple of questions about the h-pump itself.. { I can get a 4 ton Trane for example for $3800, but.. } for one thing I'm having trouble getting people to bid on the labor all by itself.. theÃr protocol involves the whole enchillada.. I've been half-heartedly told what I want is like "bringing your own lobster to a restaurant and insisting that they cook it"... lol.. something I'd be shy to do, but where it involved saving over $10K, as it would in this case, I'd figure I'd probably be calling ahead to have them pre-heat the stove !
JT8.. that's a really interesting and absorbing link but I might wind up feeling like I was living in a cave... hey, but I deeply appreciate your, and everyone else's attention in this matter.. I'll certainly consider any and all suggestions!
MarkMc, Ray, et.al., Thanks for reinforcing my belief I'm headed in the right direction!!
DickRussell, I suspect you may have the answer to anchoring the slinky-like-pex procedural dillema, and as far as sizing, yes, it is and was done by an engineer from upstate NY whose company also bid in the high $20K range, installed complete.. Maybe so they then get to retail the pipe and hardware?? Not to be a soap-boxer, but if the fees for geo-exchange, as they can seem to be, are figured on the basis of what upscale consumers can afford rather than the amount of actual labor involved, it seriously hinders the average non-DIY family's chance of seeing a reasonable break-even proposition motivate further participation in what is clearly one of the more sensible and earth-friendly approaches to meeting our fundamental energy needs. y the Plus the last certified installer wanted to use inground copper rather than my ready-in-waiting miracle pex, and wouldn't even accept American Express.. (I find I have trouble building a home without it!!!).
Now that I'm generally convinced, let me further encourage dialogue from current users.. accessing their respectiveWSHP manufacturers and their products, since ordering a particular WSHP, the beating heart of the system, seems to be the next move. Many thanks, ~LD
Edited 5/17/2007 2:47 pm ET by LukeDaniel
Edited 5/17/2007 6:25 pm ET by LukeDaniel
Edited 5/17/2007 6:42 pm ET by LukeDaniel
Edited 5/17/2007 11:20 pm ET by LukeDaniel
One summary of regulations on GSHP in CT may be found at:
http://www.geoexchange.org/publications/connecticut.htm
As for holding down slinky loops prior to bury and protection vs. rocks during the bury, I have no input on that. My interest has been in SCW designs, since that is what I envision using for a build in about 2 years time. It will be a very well insulated house, 2700 sq.ft plus the rest of lower level surrounded by concrete underground (against hill). Calculations by RESCheck program show about 18,000 BTU/hr at 0 degrees F outside temp., so the heat pump will be a 2-ton. Estimated cost at domestic 12 cents/kwh will be almost $500/yr, but maybe there is a break on the rate if used for heating, and the bill won't be as bad. There will be a well anyway, so increment for the heat pump vs. a combustion unit may be a wash or at least very little, and thus short payout.
Welcome to BT. There will probably be some geothermal folks along shortly, but until then, here is a website of a couple who installed a geothermal setup for their house:
http://www.ourcoolhouse.com/
jt8
"One of the true tests of leadership is the ability to recognize a problem before it becomes an emergency." -- Arnold H. Glasgow
I installed a GSHP made by ClimateMater - Have heard very good words about their product. I am using the 500' well on site for source and return with a 1 gpm bleed when required in the winter. THe system is a 3 ton system - and included 36000 BTU and backup resistance heating capacity. The total cost for a 1600 sq ft house was about $12000 including hot air ducts. I have now run the system for two years getting all the bugs out of it and am extremely impressed with the quiet, efficiency and cost of operation. I would say that there are four items that one should put in a home these days-
- Energy Star appliacned
Hardie siding (or equal
Standing seam metal roofing
and a GSHP
I think in not to many more years these items will be standard for just about all new homes (at least in New England)
Indeed, Climate Master seems to be one of the Top 3, yes, Thank you. P. I see where their Tranquility 27 has an EER of 30+.. which is mind blowing phenomenal.. with a Desuperheater for hot water that would definitely fill the bill and remains high in the running, but I'm also looking at Trane (at half the cost), and Carrier, Residential Tech, WaterFurnace, Florida HP, a couple out of Canada and, although it's great to have choices, it's hard to get an objective overview... I guess because WSHPs are not in enough widespread use (yet) to appear in a rating forum like Consumer Reports, etc.. (but please, someone, let me be proven wrong on this point !!)..
I can appreciate the sentiment and validity of your New England must-list Porsche,.. as to the roof tho', we just recently had put up faux slate shingles from EcoStar.. which are nearly 100% recycled from industrial rubber and old tires. It's the most slate-like non-slate product anyone around here has ever seen. Even the various colors in their earth hues simulate those you'd find in a Vermont quarry. We couldn't settle on one color so we used all nine in a kind of patchwork quilt which is beautifully unique. The company backs it for 50 years and although less than real slate it was kind of pricey at $24K for 40 squares installed with copper flashing and 3 tubular skylights. If I were doing another roof, and had no adjacent trees or other obstructions, I'd seriously look into monocrystalline PV tiles and rollout membranes like SolarSave from OpenEnergyCorp. Standing seems are great looking too. I had a metal roof in New Orleans and loved it.. but the sound when it rained albeit romantic could be a problem aestheticly.. especially when trying to record music! If you're collecting rainwater for reuse as with a terne roof it makes alot of sense tho'. I ditto agree with your other three list items, but I was wary of Hardie's anticipated lifespan and limited finish without going custom so our fiber cement siding is coming from Certainteed (a new addition to their catalogue). It looks more like redwood than anything I've seen besides redwood. Hartland from BuilderDirect also makes a good looking fiber cement product.. but we're having trouble getting similar maintenance-free (I KNOW there's truly no such, if you're a literalist.. but as M-Free as possible) exterior trim boards that come prefinished with a redwood or cedar accent that can do archetectural curves around half-round window configurations.. Lots of folks sell it in white or primed which wouldn't work here.. Oh, and would it be asking too much that the trim be 5/4 and made of a composite that's at least partially recycled? Apparently so..
Edited 5/17/2007 11:28 pm ET by LukeDaniel
Your monitor must be a whole lot larger than mine.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
lol.. maybe so I dunno.. or maybe my eyesight is alot worse!! Actually I accidently deleted a whole bunch of input (my grade school nephews are better with computers than me..) ~so I used "wordpad" to be safe and then transfered the entry over here but couldn't figure out how to reduce the text size... sorry 'bout that.. ~LD
We're doing an adition/remodel (from 800sq' to 1600sq') to a house with no central anything.
HVAC contractor is putting in a system from the guys:
http://www.fhp-mfg.com/residential.htm
Unlike air-to-air heat pumps, the entire geo-thermal mechanical system is inside...greatly reducing maintenance. I've heard of GT systems that are over 25 years old, and have only needed filter changes.
The weather was hot, a-nearly 90 degrees.
The man standin' next to me, his head was exploding,
Well, I was prayin' the pieces wouldn't fall on me.
Great Snort! How much do expect to spend? I'm DIY-ing as much as possible and since well drilling is so expensive I've decided to go with a vertical loop system just below the frostline (I got a 2000 ft coil of 1/2 inch PEX tubing w/barrier for around $400). What I need to get a handle on at this point is how to manage and secure those stubborn slinky-like loops in the trench... and how much should I be concerned about rocks causing a leak during backfilling.. would it pay to truck in sand to pack around it?? Any thoughts, anyone?
PS.. I recognize the quote as Dylan.. which song is it from??
I've been wrong before, but doesn't vertical loop refer to the well system? Anyway, that's what we're doing, 15 grand with hot water upgrade.I wasn't aware that 1/2" PEX is used for for loops, but you could bury it as you unroll, and yes, I'd worry about rocks....and, it's Day of the Locusts, Grasshopper<G> Outside of the gates the trucks were unloadin',
The weather was hot, a-nearly 90 degrees.
The man standin' next to me, his head was exploding,
Well, I was prayin' the pieces wouldn't fall on me.
Hi,
The GSHPs are energy efficient, but one downside is that when used for heating, and where the electricity to run them comes from the coal powered electric plants that are typical of the US, the greenhouse gas emissions are about the same as if you used an efficient gas furnace.
If greenhouse gases are a consideration, I think a combination of good insulation, good infiltration control, passive solar (and maybe active solar) plus a good gas furnace will save just as much energy and many more tons of CO2 emissions.
Gary
Great Snort! How much do expect to spend? I'm DIY-ing as much as possible and since well drilling is so expensive I've decided to go with a vertical loop system just below the frostline (I got a 2000 ft coil of 1/2 inch PEX tubing w/barrier for around $400). What I need to get a handle on at this point is how to manage and secure those stubborn slinky-like loops in the trench... and how much should I be concerned about rocks causing a leak during backfilling.. would it pay to truck in sand to pack around it?? Any thoughts, anyone?
Edited 5/22/2007 4:51 am ET by LukeDaniel
Any thoughts, anyone?
This is tiny font.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Looks like a lot of good stuff/information. Choosing the TYPE of ground source heat pump (GSHP) is your primary key as to whether it's a good idea ... FOR YOU. I've had clients over the years press me for an opinion ... is GSHP a good idea? Like many things ... the answer is site specific. And the type of system most appropriate depends on your site and your situation (existing house? new house?). It is important to choose the right type of system for your site (well, ground loop, lake loop, etc.).
GSHP are inherently VERY efficient ... as a heat pump, it is MUCH easier to pump heat/to a constant 50 degF ground temp than to fight the chilling winter or blazing summer.
GSHP will provide the maximum heating benefit in cold winter climates (Montana to Minnesota) vs. the moderate climates e.g. Seattle. That is, you get the most return on your investment in cold climates ... same for hot climates e.g. Arizona.
As a general rule, they CAN be a higher installed cost ... it will depend on the site. Some sites are just not GSHP 'friendly' to certain system types.
As to maintenance and wear and tear ... generally far better ... the compressor works MUCH less hard ... extending equipment life and reducing maintenance ... and since the compressor is often inside the house rather than exposed to the rigors of the weather ... the equipment will last longer.
Much like brand name furnaces, there is a lot less difference in quality between MAJOR brands ... e.g. Carrier, York, TRANE than you might find in other household products. But you might likely get an earfull otherwise; you could discuss that for a long time and maybe get nowhere.
Hope this is food for thought
Mark Williams, HR,OR
Thanxx Mr.E, I hope I'm not chewing too loudly.. Yesterday a fellow came out from Energy Star (noting our house was blowing their meager standards right out of the water!) and gave a few geo-sub leads which I'm currently pursuing. The main factor has been the cost projections I've been getting from the local players and the ability of the system to justify it's inclusion in the big picture.. I've researched each of the manufacturers you've cited and of couse everyone is quick to say theirs is best. What I would love to see is an independent verifiable side-by-side (dare I say scientific?) comparison of the many available liquid source HP's.. Any further suggestions, directions, feedback from happy HVACers? ~LD
BY THE WAY IT'S A NEW HOUSE ON 3 1/2 ACRES WITH A POND i'D LOVE TO ENLARGE BUT HARTFORD TELLS ME THE STATE IS CURRENTLY ALLOWING ONLY CLOSED LOOPS.. THANKS AGAIN, MARK!
Edited 8/2/2007 5:05 pm ET by DangoRimehart
Depending on the pond ... it might be an easy way to stick a 'coil'/loop in the pond to use for GSHP application. Assuming it's 'close' to the house. Depends on size/depth of pond, too ... probably don't want it to freeze in the winter. Most people don't have the 'luxury' of access to a surface body of water to use, but it can be a good way to minimize the system costs (no drilling or excavating).