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Kerdi Shower w Niche

Mongo's picture

For those that had asked me to post this as a formal Photo Galley thread, my apologies for taking so long in getting this posted.

Shower is a walk-in, about 5' by 7'. Door is at a 45 degree angle.

Walk in to the shower and on the short wall to the immediate right are two supply valves, the lower one supplies the wall mounted handheld, the upper supplies an overhead 12" rainshower head.

Moving counterclockwise from that wall, the long wall on the right is on an exterior wall, nothing but tile.

The short back wall has a 2-shelf niche, about 36" wide and 30" tall. The lower niche space is 15" high, the shelf itself is 4" thick, the upper niche space is 11" high.

The last wall, the long wall to the left as you enter, has the wall-mounted hand-held. If I recall, the sliding bar is 40" tall.

Tile backer? I prefer cement board on the walls. Wonderboard or Durock. I used Wonderboard on these walls. The ceiling and niche is done in Hardie, as Hardie is less brittle so for me it's easier to cut into narrow strips to trim out the niche, and not as prone to snapping when installing full sheets overhead.

Pics to follow...


There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those who understand binary and those who do not.


(post #129382, reply #1 of 180)

The Basics:





ABOVE: Looking through the door. Can lights are wet area cans.





ABOVE: Inside looking back at the supply valve wall.





ABOVE: Niche. Nipple on wall to left is supply for wall-mounted hand-held.


There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those who understand binary and those who do not.


(post #129382, reply #2 of 180)

Prepping for Kerdi:






ABOVE: Need to get the walls smooth, so I'm knocking down high areas or any blobs or thinset with a carborundum stone.






ABOVE: Setting a plumb line to hang the first sheet. Just like hanging wall paper. I hold the first sheet about an inch from the inside corner. Sheet is about 39-1/2" wide. I want the thinset to extend about 1" past the edge of the sheet. So I drop a plumb line about 41-1/2" or so from the inside corner, and mark the line vertically every foot or so with a tick mark using a sharpie.





ABOVE: Thinset. This is a little thicker than I want. I want it stiff enough so I can flat trowel it on the wall without it dripping all over or running down the wall, as well as it being able to hold a ridge after it's combed out. Not too stiff, though as you don't want it skinning over before you hang the sheet.


There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those who understand binary and those who do not.


(post #129382, reply #3 of 180)

Nice work Mongo.


Keep the pics coming.


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(post #129382, reply #6 of 180)

Thanks. I am going to be a bit slow, I have some pics on one desktop and some on another. Ugh...


There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those who understand binary and those who do not.


(post #129382, reply #8 of 180)

Mongo,


   Do you put a small tilt on the the (2) shelf niches for drainage? I would also like to see more of the pan. I will be attempting a similar shower in the future.


Looks great. Thanks for the post!

(post #129382, reply #15 of 180)

Do you put a small tilt on the the (2) shelf niches for drainage? I would also like to see more of the pan. I will be attempting a similar shower in the future.

You were to fast for me, Vince! See the picture showing the speed square held on the shelf.



Picks of the floor to follow. Might be late tonight or tomorrow.



Mongo


Edited 3/5/2007 8:45 pm ET by Mongo


There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those who understand binary and those who do not.


(post #129382, reply #16 of 180)

When I do my corners can I just run the kerdi through the corner lets say 6" and run the next wall over it to lets say 1" from inside corner thereby giving me a 5' overlap. Instead of  running a seperate 8" piece? Or is it tough to run it through corners without wrinkles?


Thanks for all your pics and posts. It looks great so far and I can't wait to see it finished.


Oh one last thought. What type of lighting and fan is used. Will they be enclosed bulbs when finished? Special type of vent and light fixture for showers?


Edited 3/5/2007 8:04 pm ET by AllTrade


Edited 3/5/2007 8:06 pm ET by AllTrade

(post #129382, reply #18 of 180)

When I do my corners can I just run the kerdi through the corner lets say 6" and run the next wall over it to lets say 1" from inside corner thereby giving me a 5' overlap. Instead of running a seperate 8" piece? Or is it tough to run it through corners without wrinkles?



Yes, you can. See Post #10, the second picture. It shows the Kerdi being run through the corner and onto the next wall. You could overlap it more than the recommended 2" (I often use 3"). Careful with too much overlap, though. when you try to bed the top layer of the overlap, sometimes you can "drag" the bottom layer along with the top, wrinkling the obottom layer. If that happens, just peel back the top layer, reset the bottom, then reset the top. Or let the bottom layer fully cure, then overlap the next layer.


Oh one last thought. What type of lighting and fan is used. Will they be enclosed bulbs when finished? Special type of vent and light fixture for showers?


Those were either Halo or Juno cans and trim kits. I have since seen the trim kits at Home Depot. It's likely they sell the cans as well. Fan was probably either a Panasonic or Nutone. Sorry! Failing memory...

Mongo


There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those who understand binary and those who do not.


(post #129382, reply #19 of 180)

Thanks, keep up the good work where wathcing every step.

(post #129382, reply #20 of 180)

Yeah. Great thread, Mongo.

I am wanting to start incorporating more tile work in my projects. Got the Kerdi e book (thanks to Andy Clifford's postings)and photo essays like this really encourage me.

Thanks, I'll be watching carefully.

Remodeling contractor who once visited the Glass City.

(post #129382, reply #21 of 180)

Fast forward...the walls, niche and ceiling are tiled and grouted. Time for the drypack preslope...







ABOVE: Old 2-part clamping drain cut out, I bought a $3 cutoff wheel and fashioned a jig to cut the drain from the pipe from the inside. Match your Kerdi drain to your existing plumbing, ABS or PVC. You can see PEX for radiant floor heat underneath subfloor.








ABOVE: Underlayment scewed, new drain location set. Though it depends on the height that the Kerdi Drain is set at, the Kerdi Drain flange is about 4-1/2" in diameter, I cut a 5" diameter hole in the underlayment and subfloor.








ABOVE: Setting the perimeter elevation for the drypack preslope. I base this height on a 1-1/4" thickness of deck mud under the flange of the Kerdi Drain, plus an additional 1/4" rise per foot of run from the drain to the farthest wall. I actually pitched this floor slightly steeper, as the floor tile has a bit of texture to it, slightly hindering drainage.








ABOVE: More mud packing.








ABOVE: I make the mix slightly looser for the ring of mud that goes under the drain's flange.








ABOVE: I covered the fleece surface of the drain with masking tape so the fleece wouldn't get messed up during installation. I had previously dry fit the drain to the plumbing waste line. The coupling sitting on top of the drain is cut to length so the drain will be set at the proper height above the subfloor, 1-1/4" in this case.



You have to have your ducks all squared away when glueing the drain to the plumbing waste line while simultaneously mudding the drain flange in place, as the flange has to be set at the proper height and set perfectly level.



It's much easier if you have access to the plumbing from below and you can simply set the drain flange in the mud on Day One, then glue up the drain to the waste plumbing on Day Two after the mud has set.








ABOVE: Fast forward, the preslope is completed. The drywall bucket is sitting over the drain.








ABOVE: A well set drain in a properly pitched preslope. Time for a beverage of my choice.


There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those who understand binary and those who do not.


(post #129382, reply #22 of 180)

Time to Kerdi the preslope:








ABOVE: First sheet is dry fit to the preslope. You don't want a membrane seam to fall on the flange, so plan accordingly.








ABOVE: Drain kit comes with a template to cut a properly sized hole for the drain in the membrane.








ABOVE: Hole is cut, I also used the ever-present Sharpie to make tick marks just off the edge of the sheet to show how far out to spread the thinset.








ABOVE: Roll the sheet up...








ABOVE: Spread the thinset...








ABOVE: Same bedding technique as used on the wall, and viola, the floor is done. Now time for the floor-to-wall transition.


There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those who understand binary and those who do not.


(post #129382, reply #23 of 180)

Niiiiiiice.

(post #129382, reply #24 of 180)

The floor-to-wall transition. When you have a lot of inside/outside corners, this is where layers of Kerdi can build up. Remember, Kerdi-Band is half the thickness of the regular Kerdi, so that may help. Thickness buildup, to me, is dependent on the type of tile that you're installing. A 1" mosaic, for example, would telegraph and mimic the height differentials that a larger tile could span and disguise.


Plan accordingly.








ABOVE: Starting with an inside corner. Pre-crease the material, snip, fold, and place. These inside 90's are easy. Move on to the next corner.








ABOVE: I use the ever-present Sharpie to mark the inside or outside point of all corners, then use scissors to cut just shy of that point. Fold the material hard over on itself to the Sharpie mark, and it is sort of self-sealing, so to speak.








ABOVE: Cutting to an inside 45 degree corner. Pretty much the same as a 90.








ABOVE: You can see the previous 45 folded over on itself, I'm now marking an outside 90 degree corner. This requires an bit more detail.








ABOVE: Here is the first piece for an outside 90. You sort of force this piece around the corner so the uncut inside edge rides up the wall a bit.








ABOVE: Like this, but when installed it'll ride up the edge of the wall just a bit more.








ABOVE: When the previous piece is installed, this part will go over it, layered on top. Whereas the previous piece sat on the floor and rode up the corner of the wall a bit, this piece cut will be on the wall and the cut will ride down on to the floor a bit. The two pieces will overlap, closing the hole so to speak.

Now, while I trust Schluter, I also want peace of mind, so I use a smear of Kerdi-Fix in these corners as well. Kerdi-Fix is Schluter's proprietary sealer. Comes in a tube like caulk and is dispensed with a caulking gun. I let everything cure/dry, then use the K-F prior to tiling.


Like Agent Mulder, when it comes to water intrusion I pretty much trust no one...








ABOVE: This shows all those corner pieces thinsetted in place. As you can see, the layers can build up, so consider Kerdi band if you nedd to minimize thickness.


There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those who understand binary and those who do not.


(post #129382, reply #25 of 180)

Now for something a little different. I'll include this since it's Kerdied as well.

Instead of a simple curb at the entry to the shower, I fashioned a larger platform that serves as both the curb for the shower, a raised tiled "drying off" area just outside of the shower, as well as a step up to facilitate getting into and out of the Jacuzzi tub.








ABOVE: Platform is framed, covered with two layers of ply, and more of the wondrous Wonderboard.








ABOVE: Platform is Kerdied, and platform Kerdi is lapped over Kerdi in shower.








ABOVE: "Curb" and platform from inside the shower looking out.


There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those who understand binary and those who do not.


(post #129382, reply #26 of 180)

Time to tile the floor...

ABOVE: Grid layout is for floor tiles, each square is about 12" square. Each square is large enough to fit a 3-by-3 grid of ~4" tiles. Remember, the floor is sloped, so grout joint spacing needs to be adjusted ever-so-slightly to keep straight grout lines on a sloped surface.

The drain cover for the Kerdi Drain is about 4" square, so it matches this tile size quite well.

ABOVE: Ah yes, a fun morning spent with the Felker wet saw...

ABOVE: The 4" field tiles layed out and thinsetted.

ABOVE: Filling the border tiles around the edge of the field of 4-inchers, right in front of the door. I'm really thrilled with the balance and symettry of this part of the floor.

ABOVE: The floor along the opposite (niche) wall. You can see the drain. Sometimes the drain can be set as if it were a whole tile, replacing a single 4" square tile, or four 2" square tiles. For this floor layout I clipped the corners of the four adjacent tiles to fit the drain into the center of those four 4" tiles.

ABOVE: Filling in the remainder of the floor tiles in front of the door opening, as well as the "baseboard", or bottom course of wall tile.

ABOVE: The tiled floor.

Edited 3/6/2007 1:28 am ET by Mongo


Edited 3/6/2007 1:30 am ET by Mongo


There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those who understand binary and those who do not.


(post #129382, reply #27 of 180)

Almost there:








ABOVE: The fun part.








ABOVE: Done, from the inside looking out.








ABOVE: Done, from the outside looking in.


There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those who understand binary and those who do not.


(post #129382, reply #28 of 180)

Yikes, the low resolution of the pics is making my purdy grout lines look all jiggy and ziggy.

Mongo


There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those who understand binary and those who do not.


(post #129382, reply #29 of 180)

Miscellaneous leftovers:








ABOVE: Someone asked if I had a picture of the squeeze out I get at the seam when I use the drywall knife to embed the Kerdi in the thinset. Here's a close-up.








ABOVE: Here's a picture of the completed niche.








ABOVE: A pic of the tiled wall, though I don't have the hand held mounted in this picture.








ABOVE: And the tiled ceiling. Tiling a ceiling is fairly easy. I first struck layout lines on the ceiling, then I I troweled and combed the ceiling with thinset. I then backbuttered the tiles and set them. No additional bracing, no worries. It's the grouting that's messy.

I spray painted the vent cover black (it was ivory) so it'd better blend with the ceiling tiles.

One thing that isn't done in this picture is that the intersection of the ceiling and walls has not been caulked. I used sanded caulk, color matched to the grout.


There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those who understand binary and those who do not.


(post #129382, reply #30 of 180)

There's not a single uncut tile in that entire shower.



The black tiles started out as 12" squares, the ivory as 13" squares.



Every stinking piece went through the wet saw then I eased the cut edges with a carborundum stone.






ABOVE: A very tired carborundum stone.


There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those who understand binary and those who do not.


(post #129382, reply #71 of 180)

Mongo,

Thanks for this terrific thread.

What kind of tile did you use? I'm not envious of having to cut every single one, but the layout on this is stellar. Gives me some great ideas for an upcoming project.

Best,
Steve

Tua res agitur, paries cum proximus ardet ~ Horace

'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb

(post #129382, reply #74 of 180)

What kind of tile did you use? I'm not envious of having to cut every single one, but the layout on this is stellar.


First, thanks.


Now, to answer:


I may be off a fraction here or there, but in general, here's what I did:


The ivory tiles started as exact 13" squares. I set my wet saw fence to about 4-1/4" and ripped 4-1/4" off one side of the 13" square. I then rotated the 13" by 4-1/4" cutoff and cut 4-1/4" off the end of that.


That gave me a 13" by 8-3/4" piece that was used on the walls below the black deco band, an 8-3/4" by 4-1/4" piece that was used above the black deco band, and a 4-1/4" square that was used elsewhere in the bath outside the shower.


I repeated that to get as many 13" by 8-3/4" pieces that I needed for the walls below the black band.


I still needed more 8-3/4" by 4-1/4" pieces for above the black band, so to I took another 13" square tile, and with the fence still set at 4-1/4", I ripped 4-1/4" off the side of the tile. I then flipped the large remnant, which was 13" by 8-3/4", and cut that into three 8-3/4" by 4-1/4" pieces and set those aside. I came back to my original cutoff, the 13" by 4-1/4" piece, flipped that, and cut 4-1/4" off the end of that. That last cut gave me another 8-3/4" by 4-1/4" piece for above the wall, and another 4-1/4" square that I used elsewhere. So from each 13" square I got four 8-3/4" by 4-1/4" pieces for above the black band, as well as one 4-1/4" square used elsewhere.


All without having to change the fence setting.


For the black deco wall band, I took an originally 12" square black tile (I think they were 11-3/4" squares), set the fence to about 5-3/4", and ran the tile through twice to get two pieces, each about 11-3/4" by 5-3/4". I did this to as many tiles as needed.


I then set the fence to about 2-3/4", rotated the halves, and cut each half into four 2-3/4" by 5-3/4" pieces.


Out of each 11-3/4" square black tile I got eight 2-3/4" by 5-3/4" pieces.


The ceiling is essentially black tiles cut in half to 11-3/4" by 5-3/4" wide, same fence setting as used above.


The floor squares are the black tiles cut into nine pieces. Set the fence to about 3-5/8ths, ripped three lengths from each tile, then rotate each length and cut each length into three squares. Nine 3-5/8th black floor squares per each whole tile.


Clear as mud?


Mongo


Edited 3/12/2007 11:27 am ET by Mongo


There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those who understand binary and those who do not.


(post #129382, reply #76 of 180)

Ah, that's what I meant about how great your project is, all the thought that went into it. Thanks for the detail.

And now I'm going to sheepishly say, all I really wanted to know was what kind of tile it is :)

Thanks again,
Steve

Tua res agitur, paries cum proximus ardet ~ Horace

'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb

(post #129382, reply #77 of 180)

"Once I could see...but now I'm blind..."


Doh!


I don't recall the name of the ivory.


The black is Continental Slate, Asian Black. Not expensive at all. A through body porcelain with decent texture and minimal repeats in the pattern. Any patterning is invisible if you cut and flip.

Mongo


There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those who understand binary and those who do not.


(post #129382, reply #78 of 180)

That's perfect. It was the black tile I was interested in.

I recalled seeing one of your shower photos elsewhere on BT, so I was pretty excited to see it as the basis of this thread. Congrats again on a job that inspires!

Tua res agitur, paries cum proximus ardet ~ Horace

'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb

(post #129382, reply #116 of 180)

Mongo<


You wrote; "There's not a single uncut tile in that entire shower.

The black tiles started out as 12" squares, the ivory as 13" squares.

Every stinking piece went through the wet saw then I eased the cut edges with a carborundum stone. "


Most tiles have an eased over edge as they approach the edge of the tile.  This makes grouting easy and make for a nice look.  If you cut a tile and then have to grout up to that edge your grout has to be perfectly level with teh very face of the tile in order to hid the cut edge.  Did you have this problem?  Did the color in your tile go all the way through the tile?

(post #129382, reply #118 of 180)

Yes, they were through-body.

The edges were eased just enough to somewhat mimic the factory edge.

Mongo


There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those who understand binary and those who do not.


(post #129382, reply #38 of 180)

Filling the border tiles around the edge of the field of 4-inchers, right in front of the door. I'm really thrilled with the balance and symmetry of this part of the floor.


Everything looks great but especially this part.


It didn't happen by chace though, did it? I assume you accurately placed the floor drain or adjusted the width of the border. Or something else.


Do you do the walls first to keep the floor clean?

(post #129382, reply #40 of 180)

It didn't happen by chace though, did it? I assume you accurately placed the floor drain or adjusted the width of the border. Or something else.


The detail around the door was planned that way. But sometimes the plan doesn't survive the execution!


I actually did both of what you mentioned regarding the drain location. Pre-tiling, I moved the location of the original 2-part clamping assembly to a better location. I couldn't get it perfect due to issues under the subflooor. Radiant floor heat, etc.


As a result, the border isn't an exactly equal width on all sides. Close, but not exact, and it doesn't seem to be that obvious. That unequal border is due to me to shifting the entire field of 4" squares just a bit. Add in the lateral flexibility when positioning the upper part of the Kerdi Drain, and it's tough to really screw up the floor design.


If the border is wide enough, you can fudge uneveness in the border. But the drain head itself needs to be dead-center and symettrical in the layout of the floor tile. If the drain cover were only off by 1/8th of an inch in the floor tile it would be apparent.


Do you do the walls first to keep the floor clean?


Yes. I have to be one of the messiest tilers around. But that's also an advantage with the Kerdi. You can later lap the floor membrane over the wall membrane with no worries.


I typically tile the walls first, with the exception of the bottom course or two of wall tile. Depends on the size of the tile. That allows me to set up a straight edge of some sort around the perimeter of the shower to use as a level guide for starting the wall tile.


I then tile the ceiling, then grout the ceiling and the walls.


Then I do the floor, from preslope to tile, and lastly I fill in the bottom course of wall tile. Then I grout the floor and the bottom course(s) of wall tile.


Being a messy worker brings up a good point. In some of the pictures you can see a ding in the membrane on the niche wall. I had my level leaning against the wall and it tipped over, taking a bite out of the membrane. I circled the ding with a Sharpie, then came back later and put a 5" square patch of Kerdi over it. Or you could seal it with a dab of Kerdi-Fix.


Mongo


There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those who understand binary and those who do not.


(post #129382, reply #45 of 180)

Nice work, great thread.


Do you caulk all the corners, or only the wall/ceiling corner?


And when you are going to caulk the corner, do you leave each tile short of the corner to create a gap, or do you lap or weave the corner.  Hope that makes some sense. 


I haven't been real thrilled with the color match between sanded caulk and sanded grout- I did one shower that it worked well in, but I did another (with white grout and caulk) where the caulk was obviously a different color than the grout.


zak


"When we build, let us think that we build forever.  Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin


"so it goes"


 

zak

"When we build, let us think that we build forever.  Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin

"so it goes"